The Pope won’t go – as a Catholic I find that so frustrating. The other thing that people lose track of is that most priests don’t abuse – these guy’s have their reputations ruined in trying to protect the reputations of the grossly corrupt.
The old fool plays his cards accordingly: Head of State means diplomatic immunity and Head of Faith allows him to meddle with other countries’ affairs. If only he’d called him self Pope Innocent XV. That would be appropriate!
When the critics are done criticizing, perhaps they will show leadership in some noble cause through example? Talk is the most reasonably priced commodity in the market place, really, the self enlightened must be more articulate that the mule flatulence uttered against everything.
archbish,
The guys protecting the reputations of the grossly corrupt enable the grossly corrupt to continue the abuse. They deserve the ruination of their reputation.
“the self enlightened must be more articulate that the mule flatulence uttered against everything”. I think I’ve just figured out what is meant; it makes more sense if “that the” is replaced with something like “about their”.
All I know is, I sure as heck ain’t self-enlightened. I’m reality- and people-enlightened. It’s this comic’s title characters who, especially when hearing the Word of God, were largely “self-enlightened”.
“When the critics are done criticizing, perhaps they will show leadership in some noble cause through example?”
So, um, secular organizations need to start cracking down on their predators? Or is it just that they should spend more time describing themselves as holy, so that we can be confident that they must be doing more good in the world than harm?
Nassar Ben Houdja! The critics do not set themselves up as the infallible representatives of all-wise and all-powerful beings. The “Bishop of Rome” should acknowledge that he’s at least as weak and fallible as anyone else AND be subject to the same criminal code. He’s the mule and his flatus is stinking Bulls.
@NBH: “Ooh, its so easy to criticise isn’t it?”
Er, yes. Painfully easy. Sell your product better.
If god is great then why are his followers such arseholes?
This is the first time that I have heard that all the souls depend on the “continued existence” of the Roman Catholic Church. Are you sure about that, author? What is the “authority” for that doctrine?
@Nassar: Tell that to all the kids who have been raped by priests. I’m sure your thoughts will sooth their souls greatly.
My guess (I may be wrong here): You have never been raped by a priest.
Dick M: “Are you sure about that, author? What is the “authority†for that doctrine?”
It would seem to be a logical conclusion from the premise, held true by many, that only Catholics are saved. C’mon, does the Pope really think salvation extends to the world’s half-billion-or-so other Christians? Even if he does, I very much doubt he’s so openminded as to think that both good Christians and, say, good Hindus go to heaven, to pick one random swath of the billions upon billions of the presumed-likely-damned. (I know that Catholics pray for their souls too, despite it not making any sense that such prayer would be necessary or successful.)
Any church that both ignores Nazi atrocities, and then puts a Hitler youth in the most powerful seat they have is evil to the core. The only good thing to do is sell the Vatican, and use the proceeds from the sale to provide lifelong counseling for the victims.
The throw all the pedo’s into jail. A real jail where child molesters are the scum that get killed off first. Squeal like a pig, Pope Hitler!
Could some posters just calm down with their comments? You are doing your and our cause no good with some of the bile that’s been spewed on this site lately.
When I was first introduced to this comic by my brother I was horrified by the provocativeness of showing mo. After catching up, I understood and appreciated the gentle humour at the heart of The Author’s work.
I fear that a few of the posters recently don’t understand the site in the same way I do. We should not be salivating at the thought of the church being brought down via the abuse of children. We may be among the vanguard of exposing the horrible truth, but let’s not forget that it is still a horrible truth.
My hope is that religion can die a gentle death, and I know that many people, having taken on the crutch of religion, will not be able to easily cast it aside. In the big picture, I would be happy enough to see religion die out when the last believers alive today dies – hopefully after many deluded yet mostly happy years.
If we want to rely on future generations’ ability to think rationally and choose science over nonsense we need to avoid falling into the same obnoxiousness towards non-members that all organised religions gravitate toward.
An artist puts their work out in the world, and the people who view it or read it will interpret that work through their own life experience. People rarely share the same interpretation of
I hope that religion doesn’t die a gentle death, for that is too kindly given what all religions deserve – now I don’t want people to die or or harmed.
But the rank and file do need to throw off the oppressive bonds and leashes held by the various religious hierarchies. The men and woman who lead religion are frauds who perpetuate a wide range of harms.
The Anglican Church is tearing itself apart internationally over tolerance.
The CC is attempting a semi-hostile take over of the Anglicans – Pope Ratz has declare this goal to be to bring all xtian flavours back into the Catholic fold – his wearing medieval clothes speaks volumes to his mentality.
Countries that are under theocracies are barely above a bronze age level, they do not invent anything or create great public works and women are barely citizens.
If we can rely on the general public’s ability to think rationally, then we need to teach critical thinking skills in school, expose children to global realities that cultures vary and what people believe is dependent on what culture they are raised in so it’s not a far leap for them to realize what they believe is also cultural, not superreality.
@trekster I wasn’t referring to the reputations of the corrupt – they’ve destroyed them themselves – but in doing those they’ve destroyed the reputations of the vast majority of priests who don’t abuse but are treated as abusers
seems to me that these churches that push the 12 step recovery system should ignore all the steps that sound nice, but don’t actually take any responsibility and focus on step 9 – being responsible to your victims.
Lenoxus – I’m glad to see that the general drift of these posts recognize the criminal nature of pedophilia. It’s not just a sin, it’s a crime. While horrilbe in secular society, it’s particularly heinous when done by those claiming absolute moral sectarian authority.
@Bucketboy. Point taken. There is more than just glee here though.
I suspect that the issue is a bit like the one Dawkins (2006) faced.
He says that religion is nasty, ignorant and brutish.
“Oh noes”, say the Anglicans- “we are nice and sophisticated theologians. No-one could object to our god (largely because we have defined him out of the universe)”
Yeah…but…That’s only when the theocrats are not in charge.
Forget the middle ages- try some of the middle-eastern countries now. Ireland’s theocracy was not much to be proud of either. Stomping on the weak and the different has been the stock in trade of all the Abrahmic religions for some time now.
You might have to excuse some of us when we see the bully getting a bit of his own back. We feel like a bit of a cheer, even if the circumstances are not too pleasant.
Its not like we didn’t KNOW this stuff was happening before- just they hadn’t been forced to admit it.
That was a welcome reminder for me, BucketBoy. I do sometimes catch myself getting really very angry and scathing about these things, and it does worry me- if I’d happened to be born to different parents in a different society, might I feel this strongly about a religion I wonder?
But then again, it’s all so wrong and it does make me ANGRY! And I just want them to stop deluding themselves and children, and stop spouting such absolute blatant bollocks and getting away with it. ARGH.
While I don’t subsribe to karma, if I did, I think it would be okay to be happy when a person or institution is hoisted by it’s own petard. After all, they are just working through their karma
Lenoxus,
You misunderstand my comment. I was not questioning whether the pope or the RCC believe non-Christians will be saved, but whether Christians will be if there is no RCC. I was merely asking for the ‘authority’ for that statement. Whether the conclusion follows from the premises in a cartoon strip is not sufficient authority.
Personally I could happily live in a world where religionists were harmless and fluffy, like the nicer factions of Anglicanism. Something intrinsic to religion tends to bring out the worst in humans, however. If unbelievers appear to be getting angrier in response, I would put this down to their patience finally wearing out.
Lenoxus — Has there ever been a case where a secular group has protected or covered up for a pedophile (or any crook, for that matter) simply because of secularity? I can’t think of any, but I’m certainly no expert.
The big difference between the catholic (or any) church and reality is that those of us based in reality have no need to cover anything up. The church simply cannot allow for a priest to be wrong — to admit that is to admit that priests and therefore the church itself is not the infallible instrument of god. As soon as you say “Believe and do everything the priest says EXCEPT…” you undermine the authority of everything the church stands for.
Dick M — I’m not sure that the RCC is a requirement for salvation, even for catholics. One could argue that a catholic, lost on a desert island, but still accepting Jesus as his saviour, etc., would likely still be saved, but as I recall, the catholics also think you need regular cannibalism (body of christ and all) along with the confession of sins to get in the VIP lounge upstairs. So, no RCC, no communion, no confession, etc. — no heaven.
But, as I said, I’m no expert and I know that belief varies widely even within the same parish, let alone within the church as a whole.
The RCC has historically shown a profound lack of appreciation – lack of grasping – the difference between a sin and a crime. Sins may be forgiven by God, but crimes need to be punished by society in order to protect others in society. When a bishop or a cardinal is sent to jail for 20 years for obstructing justice, I suspect they will get it.
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The Pope won’t go – as a Catholic I find that so frustrating. The other thing that people lose track of is that most priests don’t abuse – these guy’s have their reputations ruined in trying to protect the reputations of the grossly corrupt.
Indeed that is the way the church…aw errr..cookie crumbles.
I always did like that saying.
If he won’t stop being the pope, let him be the pope from jail
The old fool plays his cards accordingly: Head of State means diplomatic immunity and Head of Faith allows him to meddle with other countries’ affairs. If only he’d called him self Pope Innocent XV. That would be appropriate!
The RCC was deemed–by the RCC–too big to fail.
Abnegation? Don’t you mean abdication of responsibility?
When the critics are done criticizing, perhaps they will show leadership in some noble cause through example? Talk is the most reasonably priced commodity in the market place, really, the self enlightened must be more articulate that the mule flatulence uttered against everything.
archbish,
The guys protecting the reputations of the grossly corrupt enable the grossly corrupt to continue the abuse. They deserve the ruination of their reputation.
“the self enlightened must be more articulate that the mule flatulence uttered against everything”. I think I’ve just figured out what is meant; it makes more sense if “that the” is replaced with something like “about their”.
All I know is, I sure as heck ain’t self-enlightened. I’m reality- and people-enlightened. It’s this comic’s title characters who, especially when hearing the Word of God, were largely “self-enlightened”.
“When the critics are done criticizing, perhaps they will show leadership in some noble cause through example?”
So, um, secular organizations need to start cracking down on their predators? Or is it just that they should spend more time describing themselves as holy, so that we can be confident that they must be doing more good in the world than harm?
Nassar Ben Houdja! The critics do not set themselves up as the infallible representatives of all-wise and all-powerful beings. The “Bishop of Rome” should acknowledge that he’s at least as weak and fallible as anyone else AND be subject to the same criminal code. He’s the mule and his flatus is stinking Bulls.
@NBH: “Ooh, its so easy to criticise isn’t it?”
Er, yes. Painfully easy. Sell your product better.
If god is great then why are his followers such arseholes?
Speaking of which…check out the author of this.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7065824.ece
Is this a wind up? It seems too good to be true.
This is the first time that I have heard that all the souls depend on the “continued existence” of the Roman Catholic Church. Are you sure about that, author? What is the “authority” for that doctrine?
@Nassar: Tell that to all the kids who have been raped by priests. I’m sure your thoughts will sooth their souls greatly.
My guess (I may be wrong here): You have never been raped by a priest.
Dick M: “Are you sure about that, author? What is the “authority†for that doctrine?”
It would seem to be a logical conclusion from the premise, held true by many, that only Catholics are saved. C’mon, does the Pope really think salvation extends to the world’s half-billion-or-so other Christians? Even if he does, I very much doubt he’s so openminded as to think that both good Christians and, say, good Hindus go to heaven, to pick one random swath of the billions upon billions of the presumed-likely-damned. (I know that Catholics pray for their souls too, despite it not making any sense that such prayer would be necessary or successful.)
Any church that both ignores Nazi atrocities, and then puts a Hitler youth in the most powerful seat they have is evil to the core. The only good thing to do is sell the Vatican, and use the proceeds from the sale to provide lifelong counseling for the victims.
The throw all the pedo’s into jail. A real jail where child molesters are the scum that get killed off first. Squeal like a pig, Pope Hitler!
That’s why I wish all that pedo shit hit the fan while John Paul 2 was the pope. Lucky bastard.
Could some posters just calm down with their comments? You are doing your and our cause no good with some of the bile that’s been spewed on this site lately.
When I was first introduced to this comic by my brother I was horrified by the provocativeness of showing mo. After catching up, I understood and appreciated the gentle humour at the heart of The Author’s work.
I fear that a few of the posters recently don’t understand the site in the same way I do. We should not be salivating at the thought of the church being brought down via the abuse of children. We may be among the vanguard of exposing the horrible truth, but let’s not forget that it is still a horrible truth.
My hope is that religion can die a gentle death, and I know that many people, having taken on the crutch of religion, will not be able to easily cast it aside. In the big picture, I would be happy enough to see religion die out when the last believers alive today dies – hopefully after many deluded yet mostly happy years.
If we want to rely on future generations’ ability to think rationally and choose science over nonsense we need to avoid falling into the same obnoxiousness towards non-members that all organised religions gravitate toward.
@Bucketboy
An artist puts their work out in the world, and the people who view it or read it will interpret that work through their own life experience. People rarely share the same interpretation of
I hope that religion doesn’t die a gentle death, for that is too kindly given what all religions deserve – now I don’t want people to die or or harmed.
But the rank and file do need to throw off the oppressive bonds and leashes held by the various religious hierarchies. The men and woman who lead religion are frauds who perpetuate a wide range of harms.
The Anglican Church is tearing itself apart internationally over tolerance.
The CC is attempting a semi-hostile take over of the Anglicans – Pope Ratz has declare this goal to be to bring all xtian flavours back into the Catholic fold – his wearing medieval clothes speaks volumes to his mentality.
Countries that are under theocracies are barely above a bronze age level, they do not invent anything or create great public works and women are barely citizens.
If we can rely on the general public’s ability to think rationally, then we need to teach critical thinking skills in school, expose children to global realities that cultures vary and what people believe is dependent on what culture they are raised in so it’s not a far leap for them to realize what they believe is also cultural, not superreality.
revolutions are rarely gentle
@trekster I wasn’t referring to the reputations of the corrupt – they’ve destroyed them themselves – but in doing those they’ve destroyed the reputations of the vast majority of priests who don’t abuse but are treated as abusers
seems to me that these churches that push the 12 step recovery system should ignore all the steps that sound nice, but don’t actually take any responsibility and focus on step 9 – being responsible to your victims.
http://ntrygg.wordpress.com/2010/03/28/pedo-priests-and-12-steps/
of course, even step 9 has an avoid clause with “unless it causes more harm”
but harm according to how? Or do they mean harm to their own finances and again, that reputation thing….
nina – Your long post above is spot on.
Lenoxus – I’m glad to see that the general drift of these posts recognize the criminal nature of pedophilia. It’s not just a sin, it’s a crime. While horrilbe in secular society, it’s particularly heinous when done by those claiming absolute moral sectarian authority.
BucketBoy–
Your concern is noted.
@BucketBoy,
If you’ll consider being impaled on a spike to be “a gentle death”, then you can count me in.
@Bucketboy. Point taken. There is more than just glee here though.
I suspect that the issue is a bit like the one Dawkins (2006) faced.
He says that religion is nasty, ignorant and brutish.
“Oh noes”, say the Anglicans- “we are nice and sophisticated theologians. No-one could object to our god (largely because we have defined him out of the universe)”
Yeah…but…That’s only when the theocrats are not in charge.
Forget the middle ages- try some of the middle-eastern countries now. Ireland’s theocracy was not much to be proud of either. Stomping on the weak and the different has been the stock in trade of all the Abrahmic religions for some time now.
You might have to excuse some of us when we see the bully getting a bit of his own back. We feel like a bit of a cheer, even if the circumstances are not too pleasant.
Its not like we didn’t KNOW this stuff was happening before- just they hadn’t been forced to admit it.
That was a welcome reminder for me, BucketBoy. I do sometimes catch myself getting really very angry and scathing about these things, and it does worry me- if I’d happened to be born to different parents in a different society, might I feel this strongly about a religion I wonder?
But then again, it’s all so wrong and it does make me ANGRY! And I just want them to stop deluding themselves and children, and stop spouting such absolute blatant bollocks and getting away with it. ARGH.
@Daoloth
While I don’t subsribe to karma, if I did, I think it would be okay to be happy when a person or institution is hoisted by it’s own petard. After all, they are just working through their karma
Nassar Ben Houdja, I am setting an example by not raping any kids.
Lenoxus,
You misunderstand my comment. I was not questioning whether the pope or the RCC believe non-Christians will be saved, but whether Christians will be if there is no RCC. I was merely asking for the ‘authority’ for that statement. Whether the conclusion follows from the premises in a cartoon strip is not sufficient authority.
@Bucketboy: Fair enough comment
Personally I could happily live in a world where religionists were harmless and fluffy, like the nicer factions of Anglicanism. Something intrinsic to religion tends to bring out the worst in humans, however. If unbelievers appear to be getting angrier in response, I would put this down to their patience finally wearing out.
Lenoxus — Has there ever been a case where a secular group has protected or covered up for a pedophile (or any crook, for that matter) simply because of secularity? I can’t think of any, but I’m certainly no expert.
The big difference between the catholic (or any) church and reality is that those of us based in reality have no need to cover anything up. The church simply cannot allow for a priest to be wrong — to admit that is to admit that priests and therefore the church itself is not the infallible instrument of god. As soon as you say “Believe and do everything the priest says EXCEPT…” you undermine the authority of everything the church stands for.
I wrote about this a while back:
http://www.sinasohn.net/notebooks/200503240800.html
Dick M — I’m not sure that the RCC is a requirement for salvation, even for catholics. One could argue that a catholic, lost on a desert island, but still accepting Jesus as his saviour, etc., would likely still be saved, but as I recall, the catholics also think you need regular cannibalism (body of christ and all) along with the confession of sins to get in the VIP lounge upstairs. So, no RCC, no communion, no confession, etc. — no heaven.
But, as I said, I’m no expert and I know that belief varies widely even within the same parish, let alone within the church as a whole.
For what it’s worth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus
The RCC has historically shown a profound lack of appreciation – lack of grasping – the difference between a sin and a crime. Sins may be forgiven by God, but crimes need to be punished by society in order to protect others in society. When a bishop or a cardinal is sent to jail for 20 years for obstructing justice, I suspect they will get it.