A rise in Islam inspired Homophobia creates a fear that Homo inspired Islamophobia will increase
in which case the muslims know what they need to do in order to make such islamophobia less likely
It turns out that it was not homosexuals or Islamics that Omar Mateen had a problem with, it was Puerto Ricans, who are often Catholics. How long before this convoluted mess is the subject line of an episodic t.v. series episode?
the problem with Islam [or any other religion] is that even if they become totally peaceful and nice and no matter how LGBT friendly they become, they would still have a central fatal flaw of delusional irrationality.
Until Islam fully discards the fuckwitted stupidity of belief in a fantasy ‘deity’ I will remain strongly islamophobic
PiSq: I will remain strongly islamophobic
Hardly. Phobia = (by definition) unfounded or irrational fear of something.
Islamophobia thus is unfounded fear of Islam.
But those fears are far from unfounded!
I fear the prohition (like many already experience) of pork food; of dogs; of nudity; of free speech; of atheism.
…. and I don’t think that list is complete.
‘…. and I don’t think that list is complete.’
It never will be complete Dr john
because it is in the nature of islam to continuously ratchet the social restrictions and demands
as for example the demand that women cover their hair, when that is done the imams demand the face be covered, and then when that is obeyed, that women showing both eyes is too sexually provocative, and that one eye be covered.
A perversity of emulation/one-upmanship
With every news report of executions, sex slavery and vandalism, the more Islam seems to be just another strand of ordinary fascism; typically, a group of angry, bitter old men, with a plan for ruling the whole world by force, who identify and demonise women, gays and Jews, tell people what to think, how to behave, and whom to obey, and deal brutally with even perceived dissent.
Fascists will do anything to pre-empt criticism, even stooping to exploiting irrational superstitions that any intelligent child can refute. Islam’s religious veneer is simply the result of the discovery by Mohammed that if you claim to speak for God, no-one dare argue with you; this puts a virtual secret policeman in the head of every believer, unable to think of criticising the prophet without fearing that they are risking their place in Paradise.
This is the insoluble problem of Islam; how to live with the fact, both evident and unsayable, that Mohammed was a vicious, amoral warlord, tyrant and paedophile, and not even a role model for his own brutal and backward age, let alone our secular, democratic and technological one; and his beloved prophecies were and are nothing more than ignorant, self-serving hate speech, narcissism and megalomania.
@helenahandbasket and Grumpy: No special mental gymnastics necessary, and there’s an easy answer to why it’s called islamophobia (and antisemitism, btw, we already have a word for that, and with good reason), and not hinduphobia (though there is the catch-all term xenophobia, or simply racism). Yes, Islam deserves a LOT of criticism (and hotrats is quite right about the ill-suitedness of Mohammad as role model; though I want to point out that Hitchens and C.S. Lewis were strangely of one mind when it came to the fact that if you do not view Jesus as the literal Messiah you must deem him a dangerous lunatic and cannot get away with calling him a great teacher or whatever else some overly harmonious humanists are trying to do). Modern Islam is undemocratic, anti-enlightenment, misogynistic, homophobic, and utterly incapable of dealing with criticism. But none of that means that there isn’t ALSO real islamophobia.
For example, I think we can all agree that the state Israel is deserving of a LOT of criticism. Different criticism. Israel is one of the less homophobic states and definitely the LEAST homophobic one in that corner of the world. It’s also more of a democracy than most countries around it. But it’s still a very criminal state as far as treating it’s Palestinian minority is concerned, and politically actively further destabilising the region. And yet, just because we can levy a lot of criticism towards Israel doesn’t mean that there isn’t also a lot of real anti-semitism around. Someone can be doing things wrong and still be hated for the wrong reasons.
Just look at today’s Brexit results. That isn’t a victory for democracy. The very people at the core of the movement are almost as undemocractic, anti-enlightenment, misogynistic, homophobic, and xenophobic as Islam. That wasn’t fuelled by a rational discourse about sovereignty and economic policies. At its core that’s nothing but sheer fear-mongering bigoted racism. And Islamophobia.
FF:
On Israel:. But it’s still a very criminal state as far as treating it’s Palestinian minority is concerned.
That IS a way of looking at it.
But it has also been said many times, and personally I do believe it holds a lot of truth: “If Palestinians lay down their weapons, tomorrow there will be peace. If Israel lays down its weapons, by the end of the week it will be wiped off of the face of the earth”.
@Dr John. There is still much leeway between laying down arms and bulldozing villages and indiscriminately arresting and even killing citizens, including minors, without trial or process. In the end Israel is a modern, organised state, while the Palestinians are a scattered, disenfranchised people. Of course there is much hatred, but the problem for such scattered groups is always that they have no way to organise and police themselves to avoid individual factions from continuing the violence. Israel could both initiate and enforce a constructive detente. Israel could invest in the infrastructure, education and integration of Palestinians. There would still be violence for a long time to come, but just like the Basques and the northern Irish, the radicals would lose ground with every year that the general population isn’t living in oppression and utter poverty. Israel has the power to change this, if they had the political will (or specifically if the US wouldn’t exert its influence to make sure the situation stays radicalised and unstable). No matter how many Palestinians want peace, there is no way for them to create it from a position of disenfranchisement. All it takes is three idiots with some nails and fertiliser to blow up any progress.
But however you regard the specifics of the “peace” process, my point was just that the existence of reasons for criticism of Israel does not exclude the existence of unreasonable Antisemitism. And in the same vein, the existence of reasons for criticism of Islam doesn’t exclude the existence of unreasonable Islamophobia.
today’s Brexit results. That isn’t a victory for democracy. At its core that’s nothing but sheer fear-mongering bigoted racism. And Islamophobia.
Indeed
and the sad thing is that the central reason for them voting that way was to stop immigration – which is probably the one thing that will change the least
No matter how many Palestinians want peace, they will— Play the victim card
[what has prevented the Palestinians from migrating as the Syrians have done?]
So the UK has left EU – wonder how long before Nihil Disparage demands that Muslims wear a crescent and star on their clothing to indicate their Muslim status
Freefox, it’s good to hear your voice in this discussion. Unlike our vast area of disagreement regarding religion, I find myself nodding along with everything you say. Well put.
Brexis is so obviously a step in the wrong direction, it makes me fear for America with the coming election. If the yanks don’t take a lesson from the near success of the Bernie Sanders campaign, and promise some real changes, we could see a thin skinned megalomaniac wannabe personality cult leader in charge of the world’s largest military. Imagine America plastered with posters featuring his face and political slogans everywhere you look. Imagine what America’s cultural revolution could look like with him in charge. Now that is the stuff of nightmares.
FreeFox: enjoyed your posts, very accurate assessment of today’s Brexit disaster and that is all I will say on the subject otherwise I will be entering the rabbit hole.
Author: Brilliant yet again, many thanks.
Just look at today’s Brexit results. That isn’t a victory for democracy. The very people at the core of the movement are almost as undemocractic, anti-enlightenment, misogynistic, homophobic, and xenophobic as Islam. That wasn’t fuelled by a rational discourse about sovereignty and economic policies. At its core that’s nothing but sheer fear-mongering bigoted racism. And Islamophobia.
I am sure that many who voted out did so for what they felt were valid reasons and many/most are not xenophobic racists, unfortunately all the xenophobic racists voted out and now the fallout has started, news in Cambridge seen other reports of similar. The vote out seems to have emboldened the nasty people.
On Brexit:
I read one comment, on which I couldn’t agree more: my translationI am Pro EU, but Against the EU of Junker, Verhofstadt and Schulz.
Yes, EU was a GREAT idea. And NO, the current implementation is just dramatic. A pity.
May the Dutch april-6 referendum plus the Brexit referendum be the breaking point of current Eurocratism, and the rise of a TRUE European democratic (and NOT in the communist sense!) communion.
In which case I would more than welcome the British back (and I assume they would be more than happy to re-join)
Europe should NOT be islamophobic, but it should be virulant secular ! One of the reasons of the “f.u.”-vote is NOT against islam as such, it’s against the perceived gradual loss of the values of Enlightment : democracy, secular states, equality man-woman… In stead of condoning those attacks on our core values, the EU should speak (and have spoken) with a MUCH stronger voice. I think this is one of the main reasons of the “Leave” vote.
Hotrats the old men of Islam cannot censor social media. The Internet has been the main tool to expose Islam and Islamic fundamentalism to the world. I have seen many discussions that gleefully quote the Quran and the Hadiths, to the apoplectic discomfort of Muslims. In time the moderates will excuse themselves from public discussions about the faith, and the influence of the “old men” will dwindle.
extro24:
I am afraid you are a bit too optimistic.
Where it could be most usefull, there is a big tendency to censor any unwelcome sites, so the intended audience has no access to such info.
Freefox, thanks for your thoughts. I wasnt denying that bigotted hatred of muslims was a real thing. It is. I was saying that Owen Jones et al denying that Islamic beliefs had a role in hating gays was a ridiculous and irrational thing. Something he, at some level, knows himself–given his absurd reaction to being told that means, motive, and opportunity are all needed to explain criminal behavior. 52% of polled Brit8sh muslims say that homosexuality should be illegal. Do any of us think for one second that if 52% of tories (say) thought this, then Jones would not be (righty enough) trumpetting a link between belief and oppression?
extro24:
I’m afraid that they can and do censor social media, and its influence is anway circumscribed by the indoctrination they grow up with. I have a Morrocan friend who, despite living in the UK for 30 years and being a confirmed atheist, cannot bring himself to disagree with his relatives about any religious statement they might make, however moronic or inflammatory.
Jesus & Mo (the characters) are absurd, blinkered, and oddly very sweet. J&M (the cartoon) is brilliant: sharp, delicious, irresistible. Salman Rushdie
Jesus and Mo cartoons are wonderfully funny and true. Richard Dawkins
Jesus and Mo make the world a better place, bless their little hearts. Ophelia Benson
In a world defined by outrage and offence and liberal spinelessness, Jesus and Mo is a treasure, whose value we should never fail to recognize. Read them. Laugh. And think. Kenan Malik
The brilliant, celebrated, freaking hilarious atheist comic strip ... Greta Christina
...rays of sanity in a befuddled world. Keri Hulme
The liveliest depictions of Muhammad currently available... Malise Ruthven
J & Mo is the funniest and most consistently thought-provoking cartoon strip on the Net. In a saner world, it would run in a major newspaper. Nelson Jones, Heresy Corner
Consistently amusing, frequently thought-provoking and often heart-warming. New Humanist
Jesus & Mo is one of the most wonderful things on the internet.. JT Eberhard
Wittily captures much of the absurdity of religious apologetics. Mano Singham
I love jesusandmo.net cartoons - witty and sharp! Katha Pollitt
Often hilarious, frequently wry, these cartoons do what all the best cartoons do: they tell the truth through humour. Terry Sanderson, NSS President
...a wonderfully acid British cartoonist... Nick Cohen
I love the scrappy mockery of Jesus and Mo. Freedom of speech
includes the freedom to mock any person, any thing, any activity, and
any belief -- and J&M stands up for this unflinchingly Richard Stallman
...empowering, important and deeply progressive, not to mention hilarious... Council of Ex-Muslims
April 22, 2015
Pwned!
why no facebook/twitter links?
Ha! Fat chance. Watching Owen Jones et al perform the necessary mental gymnastics to maintain their beliefs is one of the wonders of the age. http://order-order.com/2016/06/20/guidos-middle-east-gay-rights-quiz/
A rise in Islam inspired Homophobia creates a fear that Homo inspired Islamophobia will increase
in which case the muslims know what they need to do in order to make such islamophobia less likely
It turns out that it was not homosexuals or Islamics that Omar Mateen had a problem with, it was Puerto Ricans, who are often Catholics. How long before this convoluted mess is the subject line of an episodic t.v. series episode?
No face book or twitter links?
Because both of them stinks.
They censor the news
They hate gays and Jews
Both run by pompous stupid dinks.
Come on, Nasser, don’t hold back, tell us how you really feel!
Go Nassar go! I love this weeks limerick.
Another nice inversion, Author. Keep ’em comin’.
Nassar,
A really fantastic BINGO!!
Well done again, Author and Nassar both.
Wow, I really didn’t see that punchline coming! Not even after it hit me! Excellent one, Author! I’m bowled over by it.
@ Pink squirrel: “in which case the muslims know what they need to do in order to make such islamophobia less likely” — Play the victim card?
play the ‘give up being homophobic’ or the ‘revise the quran ‘ card
Thank you.
the problem with Islam [or any other religion] is that even if they become totally peaceful and nice and no matter how LGBT friendly they become, they would still have a central fatal flaw of delusional irrationality.
Until Islam fully discards the fuckwitted stupidity of belief in a fantasy ‘deity’ I will remain strongly islamophobic
PiSq:
I will remain strongly islamophobic
Hardly. Phobia = (by definition) unfounded or irrational fear of something.
Islamophobia thus is unfounded fear of Islam.
But those fears are far from unfounded!
I fear the prohition (like many already experience) of pork food; of dogs; of nudity; of free speech; of atheism.
…. and I don’t think that list is complete.
Apparently Saudi Arabia has declared that all atheists, i.e. all of us, are terrorists. I’m such a failure.
‘…. and I don’t think that list is complete.’
It never will be complete Dr john
because it is in the nature of islam to continuously ratchet the social restrictions and demands
as for example the demand that women cover their hair, when that is done the imams demand the face be covered, and then when that is obeyed, that women showing both eyes is too sexually provocative, and that one eye be covered.
A perversity of emulation/one-upmanship
Why no jewphobia, hinduphobia, sikhphobia etc., etc. Islamophobia is a made up word to silence any criticism of Islam.
With every news report of executions, sex slavery and vandalism, the more Islam seems to be just another strand of ordinary fascism; typically, a group of angry, bitter old men, with a plan for ruling the whole world by force, who identify and demonise women, gays and Jews, tell people what to think, how to behave, and whom to obey, and deal brutally with even perceived dissent.
Fascists will do anything to pre-empt criticism, even stooping to exploiting irrational superstitions that any intelligent child can refute. Islam’s religious veneer is simply the result of the discovery by Mohammed that if you claim to speak for God, no-one dare argue with you; this puts a virtual secret policeman in the head of every believer, unable to think of criticising the prophet without fearing that they are risking their place in Paradise.
This is the insoluble problem of Islam; how to live with the fact, both evident and unsayable, that Mohammed was a vicious, amoral warlord, tyrant and paedophile, and not even a role model for his own brutal and backward age, let alone our secular, democratic and technological one; and his beloved prophecies were and are nothing more than ignorant, self-serving hate speech, narcissism and megalomania.
Why no jewphobia, hinduphobia, sikhphobia etc
there is
Muslims are often judeophobic, hinduphobic AND, sikhphobic ETC ETC ETC
@helenahandbasket and Grumpy: No special mental gymnastics necessary, and there’s an easy answer to why it’s called islamophobia (and antisemitism, btw, we already have a word for that, and with good reason), and not hinduphobia (though there is the catch-all term xenophobia, or simply racism). Yes, Islam deserves a LOT of criticism (and hotrats is quite right about the ill-suitedness of Mohammad as role model; though I want to point out that Hitchens and C.S. Lewis were strangely of one mind when it came to the fact that if you do not view Jesus as the literal Messiah you must deem him a dangerous lunatic and cannot get away with calling him a great teacher or whatever else some overly harmonious humanists are trying to do). Modern Islam is undemocratic, anti-enlightenment, misogynistic, homophobic, and utterly incapable of dealing with criticism. But none of that means that there isn’t ALSO real islamophobia.
For example, I think we can all agree that the state Israel is deserving of a LOT of criticism. Different criticism. Israel is one of the less homophobic states and definitely the LEAST homophobic one in that corner of the world. It’s also more of a democracy than most countries around it. But it’s still a very criminal state as far as treating it’s Palestinian minority is concerned, and politically actively further destabilising the region. And yet, just because we can levy a lot of criticism towards Israel doesn’t mean that there isn’t also a lot of real anti-semitism around. Someone can be doing things wrong and still be hated for the wrong reasons.
Just look at today’s Brexit results. That isn’t a victory for democracy. The very people at the core of the movement are almost as undemocractic, anti-enlightenment, misogynistic, homophobic, and xenophobic as Islam. That wasn’t fuelled by a rational discourse about sovereignty and economic policies. At its core that’s nothing but sheer fear-mongering bigoted racism. And Islamophobia.
FF:
On Israel:. But it’s still a very criminal state as far as treating it’s Palestinian minority is concerned.
That IS a way of looking at it.
But it has also been said many times, and personally I do believe it holds a lot of truth: “If Palestinians lay down their weapons, tomorrow there will be peace. If Israel lays down its weapons, by the end of the week it will be wiped off of the face of the earth”.
@Dr John. There is still much leeway between laying down arms and bulldozing villages and indiscriminately arresting and even killing citizens, including minors, without trial or process. In the end Israel is a modern, organised state, while the Palestinians are a scattered, disenfranchised people. Of course there is much hatred, but the problem for such scattered groups is always that they have no way to organise and police themselves to avoid individual factions from continuing the violence. Israel could both initiate and enforce a constructive detente. Israel could invest in the infrastructure, education and integration of Palestinians. There would still be violence for a long time to come, but just like the Basques and the northern Irish, the radicals would lose ground with every year that the general population isn’t living in oppression and utter poverty. Israel has the power to change this, if they had the political will (or specifically if the US wouldn’t exert its influence to make sure the situation stays radicalised and unstable). No matter how many Palestinians want peace, there is no way for them to create it from a position of disenfranchisement. All it takes is three idiots with some nails and fertiliser to blow up any progress.
But however you regard the specifics of the “peace” process, my point was just that the existence of reasons for criticism of Israel does not exclude the existence of unreasonable Antisemitism. And in the same vein, the existence of reasons for criticism of Islam doesn’t exclude the existence of unreasonable Islamophobia.
today’s Brexit results. That isn’t a victory for democracy. At its core that’s nothing but sheer fear-mongering bigoted racism. And Islamophobia.
Indeed
and the sad thing is that the central reason for them voting that way was to stop immigration – which is probably the one thing that will change the least
No matter how many Palestinians want peace, they will— Play the victim card
[what has prevented the Palestinians from migrating as the Syrians have done?]
So the UK has left EU – wonder how long before Nihil Disparage demands that Muslims wear a crescent and star on their clothing to indicate their Muslim status
Freefox, it’s good to hear your voice in this discussion. Unlike our vast area of disagreement regarding religion, I find myself nodding along with everything you say. Well put.
Brexis is so obviously a step in the wrong direction, it makes me fear for America with the coming election. If the yanks don’t take a lesson from the near success of the Bernie Sanders campaign, and promise some real changes, we could see a thin skinned megalomaniac wannabe personality cult leader in charge of the world’s largest military. Imagine America plastered with posters featuring his face and political slogans everywhere you look. Imagine what America’s cultural revolution could look like with him in charge. Now that is the stuff of nightmares.
FreeFox: enjoyed your posts, very accurate assessment of today’s Brexit disaster and that is all I will say on the subject otherwise I will be entering the rabbit hole.
Author: Brilliant yet again, many thanks.
FreeFox says:
Just look at today’s Brexit results. That isn’t a victory for democracy. The very people at the core of the movement are almost as undemocractic, anti-enlightenment, misogynistic, homophobic, and xenophobic as Islam. That wasn’t fuelled by a rational discourse about sovereignty and economic policies. At its core that’s nothing but sheer fear-mongering bigoted racism. And Islamophobia.
I am sure that many who voted out did so for what they felt were valid reasons and many/most are not xenophobic racists, unfortunately all the xenophobic racists voted out and now the fallout has started, news in Cambridge seen other reports of similar. The vote out seems to have emboldened the nasty people.
On Brexit:
I read one comment, on which I couldn’t agree more:
my translationI am Pro EU, but Against the EU of Junker, Verhofstadt and Schulz.
Yes, EU was a GREAT idea. And NO, the current implementation is just dramatic. A pity.
May the Dutch april-6 referendum plus the Brexit referendum be the breaking point of current Eurocratism, and the rise of a TRUE European democratic (and NOT in the communist sense!) communion.
In which case I would more than welcome the British back (and I assume they would be more than happy to re-join)
Europe should NOT be islamophobic, but it should be virulant secular ! One of the reasons of the “f.u.”-vote is NOT against islam as such, it’s against the perceived gradual loss of the values of Enlightment : democracy, secular states, equality man-woman… In stead of condoning those attacks on our core values, the EU should speak (and have spoken) with a MUCH stronger voice. I think this is one of the main reasons of the “Leave” vote.
those are reasonable/sensible /wise reasons for the leave EU vote
however I think the majority of leave voters had far less noble reasons
Hotrats the old men of Islam cannot censor social media. The Internet has been the main tool to expose Islam and Islamic fundamentalism to the world. I have seen many discussions that gleefully quote the Quran and the Hadiths, to the apoplectic discomfort of Muslims. In time the moderates will excuse themselves from public discussions about the faith, and the influence of the “old men” will dwindle.
extro24:
I am afraid you are a bit too optimistic.
Where it could be most usefull, there is a big tendency to censor any unwelcome sites, so the intended audience has no access to such info.
Freefox, thanks for your thoughts. I wasnt denying that bigotted hatred of muslims was a real thing. It is. I was saying that Owen Jones et al denying that Islamic beliefs had a role in hating gays was a ridiculous and irrational thing. Something he, at some level, knows himself–given his absurd reaction to being told that means, motive, and opportunity are all needed to explain criminal behavior. 52% of polled Brit8sh muslims say that homosexuality should be illegal. Do any of us think for one second that if 52% of tories (say) thought this, then Jones would not be (righty enough) trumpetting a link between belief and oppression?
extro24:
I’m afraid that they can and do censor social media, and its influence is anway circumscribed by the indoctrination they grow up with. I have a Morrocan friend who, despite living in the UK for 30 years and being a confirmed atheist, cannot bring himself to disagree with his relatives about any religious statement they might make, however moronic or inflammatory.