But hear me out @TRevor H: who says that in the end morals are going to be measured by our standards? perhaps we get a sneak peek into what will be allowed eventually when civilisation peaks?!
(and that the future peak is so entirely congruent to the moral viewpoint of when the texts were written is a mere coincidence XD )
My understanding is that Muslim apologists (explainers) have “clarified” the marriage to Aisha, saying that technically they were married for whatever socio-political reasons but the marriage wasn’t actually consummated until she came of age (presumably 11 or 12)
Eleven? Well that’s alright then! I should pass this information on to the fellow who lived at the end of the block who is currently serving twelve years for banging eleven year olds in Thailand. Maybe he can get a new trial?
Historian biographers of Mohammed (peace be all over him), document that he was the first to utter the one liner that has become a classic among good natured pedophiles:
“I was out with a gorgeous twelve year old last night—she had the body of a nine year old!”
Eleven is kind of pushing it, let alone nine, but still, even in the West people sometimes got married a lot earlier than they do today. (It was never actually the norm for women to get married that young though, despite what some people think; it’s just that when it did happen nobody was especially concerned).
One of the strange things about Aisha is the stated fact (I forget which source) that Mo claimed he got better ‘prophetic visions’ while wearing Aisha’s robes which suggests some deeper/esoteric/shamanic reason for his choosing her – was she considered ‘mystical’ in some way? Also (according to Perdurobo, for what his opinion is worth) ‘deviant sexual practices’ were a pathway to ‘magical ability’
I once said to my dear friend, Arab and Muslim colleague Dr. Amadahamamadaman… what do Muslims say at the moment of sexual ecstasy as for many it becomes a spiritual epiphany and they shout out the name of God or Jesus Christ, does a Muslim shout out “Allah”?
Well said the good doctor: one cannot mention the name of Allah without including the name of the prophet Muhammad (p. moo-ham-mad)… so it would be too long to say as a verbal ejaculation accompanying a sexual orgasm and U would have to say it in a ritualistic way and in Arabic. And then as he poured himself another drink, he said I wonder if AAers say OH MY Higher Power! when they climax.
We doubled over in laughter… and then Dr. A. said: of course all of this is assuming that Muslims have orgasms at all … most men have ‘ejaculations’ in which their pleasure is limited to their genitalia… localized pleasure… but to reach the crescendo of passionate ecstasy, U really need a change in your world view… a more feminine world view… where orgasm is important.
Let’s be more charitable than is reasonable for a moment.
Let’s assume that marriages of the kind between M and Aisha were a normal thing at the time. Let’s assume that at the time there would have been no consideration that it was immoral.
Well, many human activities were once considered normal and free of moral taint. But we’ve gotten smarter and better, and know we shouldn’t do such things.
For example, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were accomplished and intelligent people who owned slaves. Many otherwise blameless people did, at the time. But very few Americans, perhaps only the worst, would suggest that we emulate that today. Very few would do so publicly. The average morality practised by society has improved.
So why do some people try to find reasons to defend the marriage of Aisha? All they have to do is agree that people didn’t know they what they know now. That lives were much shorter, so girls had to start younger. They could even point out that Mary was only about 13 when Jehovah planted a live one in her.
Why insist that everything M did was moral and good?
(Tried to edit… this sentence is the result. It worked! Thanks, Author!)
Laripu: I accept all your points of 16 August @ 03.10, but here are some additional considerations.
In the era you cite, deaths of women/girls in childbirth were more frequent than they are today, so a man was more likely to be widowed in the prime of life, and require a replacement wife. As most women of his own generation were already “taken”, he had to seek his replacement wife “fresh off the production line”, ie soon after puberty.
The practice of polygamy (polygyny!) would also create a chronic shortage of replacement (or additional) wives. Presumable only fairly high-status, ie successful, men could manage to acquire even one wife.
Even proof-reading and editing within the comment box, I sometimes miss something! Even the new edit function would not have helped me – I did not spot the error in time.
Son of Glenner, I agree.
When I hit 75, in 12 years, I’ll get 3 or 4 young women.
(I’ll pay them to change the adult diapers I suspect I may have, because I imagine I won’t be able to manage anything better. Well, it’s a shit job but it’ll pay.)
“deaths of women/girls in childbirth”
My understanding is that is a greater danger if the woman is between puberty & being fully grown. That is one good reason to delay marriage.
Laripu: I am already 80 and so far do not require “adult diapers”, but I would not say no to a young woman (just one, I’m not greedy) who might provide other services. However, not being a pop singer, film star, or even just a successful businessman, I lack the high status to attract any. I take it you have the necessary high status – and finances, or at least expect to have both when you “hit” 75.
James R. Baerg: I believe that your understanding is quite correct and that your conclusion is both wise and humane, although access to reliable contraception could allow for early marriage but delayed reproduction.
Son of Glenner, I don’t have the status to attract young women for sex. Nor would I foist myself on them if I did.
I do and will have the wherewithal to pay nurses. This is due a planned campaign of saving and investment, because I have no children to take care of me when I can no longer do it myself. I don’t believe I can necessarily depend on government agencies to do that.
Perhaps 75 was too young an age for that eventually; I certainly hope so.
Bruce, yeah 11 is still bad, but IIRC Mary was about that age when God knocked her up so I guess child brides are common in Abrahamic religions. No wonder we have a problem with pedo-priests today.
Alverant: Most of the cases of paedo-priests we seem to hear of these days involve boys rather than young girls. So, how does that relate to child brides in the days of the original Jesus and Mo?
Is it perhaps simply a matter of availability as girls are less likely than boys to assist at the altar or to sing in the choir? As churches (other than RC) move towards gender equality, will the girls catch up with the boys – jailbait equality?
Jesus & Mo (the characters) are absurd, blinkered, and oddly very sweet. J&M (the cartoon) is brilliant: sharp, delicious, irresistible. Salman Rushdie
Jesus and Mo cartoons are wonderfully funny and true. Richard Dawkins
Jesus and Mo make the world a better place, bless their little hearts. Ophelia Benson
In a world defined by outrage and offence and liberal spinelessness, Jesus and Mo is a treasure, whose value we should never fail to recognize. Read them. Laugh. And think. Kenan Malik
The brilliant, celebrated, freaking hilarious atheist comic strip ... Greta Christina
...rays of sanity in a befuddled world. Keri Hulme
The liveliest depictions of Muhammad currently available... Malise Ruthven
J & Mo is the funniest and most consistently thought-provoking cartoon strip on the Net. In a saner world, it would run in a major newspaper. Nelson Jones, Heresy Corner
Consistently amusing, frequently thought-provoking and often heart-warming. New Humanist
Jesus & Mo is one of the most wonderful things on the internet.. JT Eberhard
Wittily captures much of the absurdity of religious apologetics. Mano Singham
I love jesusandmo.net cartoons - witty and sharp! Katha Pollitt
Often hilarious, frequently wry, these cartoons do what all the best cartoons do: they tell the truth through humour. Terry Sanderson, NSS President
...a wonderfully acid British cartoonist... Nick Cohen
I love the scrappy mockery of Jesus and Mo. Freedom of speech
includes the freedom to mock any person, any thing, any activity, and
any belief -- and J&M stands up for this unflinchingly Richard Stallman
...empowering, important and deeply progressive, not to mention hilarious... Council of Ex-Muslims
February 12, 2020
Wouldn’t the inclusion/exclusion depend on the job ? God’s final messenger not so good, stand-in for Jimmy Saville perfect.
Not to mention the slavery thing as well …
So much for god given ‘Objective Morality’ in both camps.
I’d say it proves they weren’t omniscient – they didn’t know the moral zeitgeist would change and make them look reprehensible
But hear me out @TRevor H: who says that in the end morals are going to be measured by our standards? perhaps we get a sneak peek into what will be allowed eventually when civilisation peaks?!
(and that the future peak is so entirely congruent to the moral viewpoint of when the texts were written is a mere coincidence XD )
My understanding is that Muslim apologists (explainers) have “clarified” the marriage to Aisha, saying that technically they were married for whatever socio-political reasons but the marriage wasn’t actually consummated until she came of age (presumably 11 or 12)
I don’t think the marriage was consummated until she was about 11
Jesus: “I don’t know why God didn’t stop you.”
But…isn’t…Jesus…God…?
Eleven? Well that’s alright then! I should pass this information on to the fellow who lived at the end of the block who is currently serving twelve years for banging eleven year olds in Thailand. Maybe he can get a new trial?
Historian biographers of Mohammed (peace be all over him), document that he was the first to utter the one liner that has become a classic among good natured pedophiles:
“I was out with a gorgeous twelve year old last night—she had the body of a nine year old!”
Moral relativism over time and how it relates to theodicy – the question that never gets answered!
Jveeds
You were there, where you?
Eleven is kind of pushing it, let alone nine, but still, even in the West people sometimes got married a lot earlier than they do today. (It was never actually the norm for women to get married that young though, despite what some people think; it’s just that when it did happen nobody was especially concerned).
Very good today Author.
Proper LOL with my morning coffee.
Keep them coming!
One of the strange things about Aisha is the stated fact (I forget which source) that Mo claimed he got better ‘prophetic visions’ while wearing Aisha’s robes which suggests some deeper/esoteric/shamanic reason for his choosing her – was she considered ‘mystical’ in some way? Also (according to Perdurobo, for what his opinion is worth) ‘deviant sexual practices’ were a pathway to ‘magical ability’
I once said to my dear friend, Arab and Muslim colleague Dr. Amadahamamadaman… what do Muslims say at the moment of sexual ecstasy as for many it becomes a spiritual epiphany and they shout out the name of God or Jesus Christ, does a Muslim shout out “Allah”?
Well said the good doctor: one cannot mention the name of Allah without including the name of the prophet Muhammad (p. moo-ham-mad)… so it would be too long to say as a verbal ejaculation accompanying a sexual orgasm and U would have to say it in a ritualistic way and in Arabic. And then as he poured himself another drink, he said I wonder if AAers say OH MY Higher Power! when they climax.
We doubled over in laughter… and then Dr. A. said: of course all of this is assuming that Muslims have orgasms at all … most men have ‘ejaculations’ in which their pleasure is limited to their genitalia… localized pleasure… but to reach the crescendo of passionate ecstasy, U really need a change in your world view… a more feminine world view… where orgasm is important.
Let’s be more charitable than is reasonable for a moment.
Let’s assume that marriages of the kind between M and Aisha were a normal thing at the time. Let’s assume that at the time there would have been no consideration that it was immoral.
Well, many human activities were once considered normal and free of moral taint. But we’ve gotten smarter and better, and know we shouldn’t do such things.
For example, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were accomplished and intelligent people who owned slaves. Many otherwise blameless people did, at the time. But very few Americans, perhaps only the worst, would suggest that we emulate that today. Very few would do so publicly. The average morality practised by society has improved.
So why do some people try to find reasons to defend the marriage of Aisha? All they have to do is agree that people didn’t know they what they know now. That lives were much shorter, so girls had to start younger. They could even point out that Mary was only about 13 when Jehovah planted a live one in her.
Why insist that everything M did was moral and good?
(Tried to edit… this sentence is the result. It worked! Thanks, Author!)
Laripu: I accept all your points of 16 August @ 03.10, but here are some additional considerations.
In the era you cite, deaths of women/girls in childbirth were more frequent than they are today, so a man was more likely to be widowed in the prime of life, and require a replacement wife. As most women of his own generation were already “taken”, he had to seek his replacement wife “fresh off the production line”, ie soon after puberty.
The practice of polygamy (polygyny!) would also create a chronic shortage of replacement (or additional) wives. Presumable only fairly high-status, ie successful, men could manage to acquire even one wife.
I notice that an edit option is now once more available for a limited time after submitting a comment.
I try to do all my editing within the comment box before submitting, but I am sure many of us will be pleased with this improvement.
Thank you, Author.
“Presumable” intended as “Presumably”!
Even proof-reading and editing within the comment box, I sometimes miss something! Even the new edit function would not have helped me – I did not spot the error in time.
Son of Glenner, I agree.
When I hit 75, in 12 years, I’ll get 3 or 4 young women.
(I’ll pay them to change the adult diapers I suspect I may have, because I imagine I won’t be able to manage anything better. Well, it’s a shit job but it’ll pay.)
“deaths of women/girls in childbirth”
My understanding is that is a greater danger if the woman is between puberty & being fully grown. That is one good reason to delay marriage.
Laripu: I am already 80 and so far do not require “adult diapers”, but I would not say no to a young woman (just one, I’m not greedy) who might provide other services. However, not being a pop singer, film star, or even just a successful businessman, I lack the high status to attract any. I take it you have the necessary high status – and finances, or at least expect to have both when you “hit” 75.
James R. Baerg: I believe that your understanding is quite correct and that your conclusion is both wise and humane, although access to reliable contraception could allow for early marriage but delayed reproduction.
Son of Glenner, I don’t have the status to attract young women for sex. Nor would I foist myself on them if I did.
I do and will have the wherewithal to pay nurses. This is due a planned campaign of saving and investment, because I have no children to take care of me when I can no longer do it myself. I don’t believe I can necessarily depend on government agencies to do that.
Perhaps 75 was too young an age for that eventually; I certainly hope so.
Bruce, yeah 11 is still bad, but IIRC Mary was about that age when God knocked her up so I guess child brides are common in Abrahamic religions. No wonder we have a problem with pedo-priests today.
Alverant: Most of the cases of paedo-priests we seem to hear of these days involve boys rather than young girls. So, how does that relate to child brides in the days of the original Jesus and Mo?
Is it perhaps simply a matter of availability as girls are less likely than boys to assist at the altar or to sing in the choir? As churches (other than RC) move towards gender equality, will the girls catch up with the boys – jailbait equality?