I’ve always thought there were two equally entertaining responses to the argument that Jesus makes, i. e., that without God he would do all sorts of evil & naughty things.
First, to immediately agree and explain that you don’t want to take the chance that something you say or do might cause them to lose this one bulwark against their immorality. “I wouldn’t be able to live with myself, if you went home & killed your family.”
and the other, “so, what you’re saying is that a believer needs to be told not to eat babies or go on random crime sprees.”
The scary part of that joke is that apparently many believers really do believe that they would have trouble telling right from wrong without divine guidance on the subject. (In fact, if I recall correctly, the Bible pretty much says that humans are a hopeless mess on their own, and do need someone or something to tell them what to do.)
Troubleshooter – there are some famously not very religious dictators with some mighty scores on the doors. not that i disagree with you on a day to day basis – the religious ‘right’ certainly seem to love a good slaughter
Never had this discussion with a believer/propagandist? I’m sure it varies, but seems to me the usual is Stalin & Mao representing the typical bloodthirsty atheist. If an atheist isn’t a moral vacuum, he or she probably was raised Christian and just going through a phase.
Sort of a real thing for Mo, actually. According to the wikipedia story anyway, he grew up in a sort of “every man for himself” culture, where the only respite from this was a holy season where you weren’t supposed to fight. The less violent pilgrim or shopper would wait until the holy season to come into town.
Well, O, I think this week’s title is meant as kind of a thought-bubble for Mo there? Reminiscing. Lost. Stunned, indeed. (Has been for centuries, nay millennia!)
There are Christians who loudly and proudly admit that they would go around stealing, raping and killing if they didn’t believe in god, without an iota of self awareness.
M27Holts: Not pissed, alas – pubs in Scotland not open yet, no reopening until 12 days time – 12 days and counting! Drinking the occasional dram at home is just not the same!
Pubs in Manchester are open now – enjoy until the next lockdown!
I must be having a weird day but I thought Mo was quiet in the last panel because he did all the above atrocities with holy guidance in place. He also had a nasty reputation for breaking the yearly truce to enjoy some quality jihad time.
In the name of balance I must also mention JC doing some extremely violent furniture throwing in Jerusalem once.
@Deimos – Exactly! Morality – schmorality says Mo; “Let’s thieve/rape/kill us some infidels. ‘Cause Great Allah says so.”
Like he’s playing a bloody game of Simon Says, FFS.
M27, you know, I thought for a moment there could actually be a loving god when the democrats took back the country, here in the good ole usa. It was certainly worth paying, if not praying for. Your assessment of Afghanistan is dour. if not dour, then dire. Would it were not so. Does this mean atheists are dismal humanists of the realpolitik kind? Sorry if this breaks in to your futbol time. Go (your team)! And please have a cask ale for me. They don’t exist here.
Cask conditioned is when the beer is still “alive” when casked. When the cask is cracked you have a limited time to drink the ale before it sours….thus the prevalence of keg ale which is sterilised before going into the keg and stays fresher for much longer but loses the taste somewhat and laxative effect of live beer….when I started drinking, cask ales were on the way out for the lager boys preference for ice cold pish…but the modern craft ales are good tasting kegged beer which is a boon for those of us thay like to taste a beer, not expecting it to be alcoholic water that the lager boys quaff with their pea sized brains….
Literary qualities? M27Holts? He is obviously knowledgeable about what some Brits call “real ale” (and I agree with his sentiments), but he has previously proclaimed his own distaste for literary pretensions and will no doubt resent what Dr John the Wipper intended as a compliment.
My reading tends to be factual at the moment. I started that Godel, Escher, Bach. Book at xmas, but stopped after a couple of pages…been too busy with work and building my home bar and gym…I have read novels since school but mainly science fiction and science fantasy….Big fan of the late great Terry Pratchett…
Actually we may be missing the mark associating Islam to Afghanistan, the country was already insane when Alexander the Great fought through it. It was so tough he placed a city bearing his name (Iskandahar or Alexandria) there.
I hate to say it but Afghanistan may actually have been slightly helped by the religion of peace.
At any rate, since the “solid foundation for your morality” argument is clearly specious, I think it follows that this is equally true where the morality in question seems depraved to us.
Afghanistan is a muslim country? Is it not? or are all those bearded nutjobs with AK47s reading the God Delusion and just killing people for giggles and shits….
M27Holts, we’d get on well: I’ve been homebrewing live beer since 1990, and read Gödel, Escher, Bach in 1981, and loved it. Unfortunately it was around the same time I was studying for final exams in Galois Theory. I think it took 5% off my final grade. You should finish it. Understanding modern programming, AI, and learning algorithms will give you a slant on it I couldn’t have had in 1981, with the limited walnut sized thing I use to decide what’s for supper.
Another thing I liked: it contained Jabberwocky, translated into French and German, both of which I speak… in a manner of speaking… after a fashion. That is to say, well enough to get in trouble, and to understand nonsense translated into nonsense.
I will probably start the book If I get abroad later in the year….but the wife has a list of DIY projects that will take most of my time when not drinking, sleeping and working…
Dawkins has been stripped of his 1996 Humanist of the year award….the objective biological sex v the subjective self identification argument has bitten his arse I believe. Apparently he denied trans-sexuals humanity in a tweet? I read it and didn’t see any content that said that trans-sexuals aren’t human…or is that my natural white northern european unconscious transphobic tendancy?
Dawkins: In 2015, Rachel Dolezal, a white chapter president of NAACP, was vilified for identifying as Black.
Some men choose to identify as women, and some women choose to identify as men. You will be vilified if you deny that they literally are what they identify as. Discuss.
AHA: The evolutionary biologist’s latest comment, the board said, “implies that the identities of transgender individuals are fraudulent, while also simultaneously attacking Black identity as one that can be assumed when convenient”, while his “subsequent attempts at clarification are inadequate and convey neither sensitivity nor sincerity”.
To me they’re essentially restating his point, but without the apparent awareness of its contradictions. One may not speak publicly of any potential contradiction here.
Dawkins is 80 now.
It is likely that he is more belligerent and less coherent than he was 25 years ago.
I think to withdraw an award is not treating him with the respect he has earned.
I will try to forgive him in his decline.
Poor man. Well, not really. I have a hunch what he really needs is a Curmudgeon award, something I’d sure be proud to have. It would be taken away when they catch you kowtowing to political correctness or public sentiment.
Poor old Dawkins – damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t! Looks like the AHA has become the proverbial asylum run by its inmates! Next thing they’ll be denying evolution or decreeing that the Earth is flat.
Ideally, we ought to be able raise questions like this, when we encounter contradictions, and as he says: Discuss. In this way we shed light on the meaning of what we’re doing.
Unfortunately, it may be that the AHA is right (whether they understand it this way or not) – we can’t afford to ask those questions, because we are unable to hold the discussion.
Oh yeah, plenty of discussion here and ten thousand other places, but of such typically very low quality and shedding so very little light on the matter, that in practice the question may almost be considered disingenuous – one doesn’t ask a question in good faith, if there’s so little likelihood of an illuminating answer.
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Often hilarious, frequently wry, these cartoons do what all the best cartoons do: they tell the truth through humour. Terry Sanderson, NSS President
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July 14, 2009
Is there an extra “have” in panel 1?
I’ve always thought there were two equally entertaining responses to the argument that Jesus makes, i. e., that without God he would do all sorts of evil & naughty things.
First, to immediately agree and explain that you don’t want to take the chance that something you say or do might cause them to lose this one bulwark against their immorality. “I wouldn’t be able to live with myself, if you went home & killed your family.”
and the other, “so, what you’re saying is that a believer needs to be told not to eat babies or go on random crime sprees.”
@SpellChecker – yes, there was. Thanks for spotting!
The scary part of that joke is that apparently many believers really do believe that they would have trouble telling right from wrong without divine guidance on the subject. (In fact, if I recall correctly, the Bible pretty much says that humans are a hopeless mess on their own, and do need someone or something to tell them what to do.)
OH DAAAAAMN
In the last panel Mo does not answer and appears lost in thought. Is he gleefully imagining dining at Red Lobster or chumming with Matt Gaetz?
Ummm, J? Exactly how many atheists do you read about in the news media, thieving, raping and killing?
Give it some thought. I’ll wait…
Troubleshooter – there are some famously not very religious dictators with some mighty scores on the doors. not that i disagree with you on a day to day basis – the religious ‘right’ certainly seem to love a good slaughter
Never had this discussion with a believer/propagandist? I’m sure it varies, but seems to me the usual is Stalin & Mao representing the typical bloodthirsty atheist. If an atheist isn’t a moral vacuum, he or she probably was raised Christian and just going through a phase.
Sort of a real thing for Mo, actually. According to the wikipedia story anyway, he grew up in a sort of “every man for himself” culture, where the only respite from this was a holy season where you weren’t supposed to fight. The less violent pilgrim or shopper would wait until the holy season to come into town.
Mo, say something, fast! You’re ruining your reputation just sitting there looking stunned.
Well, O, I think this week’s title is meant as kind of a thought-bubble for Mo there? Reminiscing. Lost. Stunned, indeed. (Has been for centuries, nay millennia!)
There are Christians who loudly and proudly admit that they would go around stealing, raping and killing if they didn’t believe in god, without an iota of self awareness.
Mark: “without an iota of self awareness.”
But with an Omega of godawfulness! Automata, Zombies.
Further to Spellchecker: In panel 1, in Jesus’ speech bubble, is the “have” not redundant, intrusive or something? It just doesn’t seem right somehow.
Mo is clearly missing his caravan-raiding days.
Author, as much as I hate pedantry (!) I would be remiss if I failed to suggest that in panel 1, Jesus’ ‘have’ should be ‘had’.
Reads ok to me…you lot pished?
I got rid of that “have” hours ago! I don’t know why it’s taken so long to disappear.
M27Holts: Not pissed, alas – pubs in Scotland not open yet, no reopening until 12 days time – 12 days and counting! Drinking the occasional dram at home is just not the same!
Pubs in Manchester are open now – enjoy until the next lockdown!
Ah, the old story of the haves and the not-haves. Cheers 😉
I must be having a weird day but I thought Mo was quiet in the last panel because he did all the above atrocities with holy guidance in place. He also had a nasty reputation for breaking the yearly truce to enjoy some quality jihad time.
In the name of balance I must also mention JC doing some extremely violent furniture throwing in Jerusalem once.
I have been staring at Mo for the last few minutes, expecting him to blink…
No?
@Deimos – Exactly! Morality – schmorality says Mo; “Let’s thieve/rape/kill us some infidels. ‘Cause Great Allah says so.”
Like he’s playing a bloody game of Simon Says, FFS.
Aye. Let us see how the “peaceful” religion kills thousands in Afghanistan…
M27, you know, I thought for a moment there could actually be a loving god when the democrats took back the country, here in the good ole usa. It was certainly worth paying, if not praying for. Your assessment of Afghanistan is dour. if not dour, then dire. Would it were not so. Does this mean atheists are dismal humanists of the realpolitik kind? Sorry if this breaks in to your futbol time. Go (your team)! And please have a cask ale for me. They don’t exist here.
Classic! Making multiple points at once.
It’s possible to get “cask conditioned” ale here in Seattle establishments, if that’s the same thing.
As for whether anyone’s ever going to be able to rescue the Afghans from themselves, no idea on that.
Cask conditioned is when the beer is still “alive” when casked. When the cask is cracked you have a limited time to drink the ale before it sours….thus the prevalence of keg ale which is sterilised before going into the keg and stays fresher for much longer but loses the taste somewhat and laxative effect of live beer….when I started drinking, cask ales were on the way out for the lager boys preference for ice cold pish…but the modern craft ales are good tasting kegged beer which is a boon for those of us thay like to taste a beer, not expecting it to be alcoholic water that the lager boys quaff with their pea sized brains….
M27:
I lack your literary qualities in English, but I wholeheartedly agree!
Literary qualities? M27Holts? He is obviously knowledgeable about what some Brits call “real ale” (and I agree with his sentiments), but he has previously proclaimed his own distaste for literary pretensions and will no doubt resent what Dr John the Wipper intended as a compliment.
My reading tends to be factual at the moment. I started that Godel, Escher, Bach. Book at xmas, but stopped after a couple of pages…been too busy with work and building my home bar and gym…I have read novels since school but mainly science fiction and science fantasy….Big fan of the late great Terry Pratchett…
Actually we may be missing the mark associating Islam to Afghanistan, the country was already insane when Alexander the Great fought through it. It was so tough he placed a city bearing his name (Iskandahar or Alexandria) there.
I hate to say it but Afghanistan may actually have been slightly helped by the religion of peace.
At any rate, since the “solid foundation for your morality” argument is clearly specious, I think it follows that this is equally true where the morality in question seems depraved to us.
Afghanistan is a muslim country? Is it not? or are all those bearded nutjobs with AK47s reading the God Delusion and just killing people for giggles and shits….
If the paint color doesn’t make your car go faster, then very likely it doesn’t make it go slower either.
M27Holts, we’d get on well: I’ve been homebrewing live beer since 1990, and read Gödel, Escher, Bach in 1981, and loved it. Unfortunately it was around the same time I was studying for final exams in Galois Theory. I think it took 5% off my final grade. You should finish it. Understanding modern programming, AI, and learning algorithms will give you a slant on it I couldn’t have had in 1981, with the limited walnut sized thing I use to decide what’s for supper.
Another thing I liked: it contained Jabberwocky, translated into French and German, both of which I speak… in a manner of speaking… after a fashion. That is to say, well enough to get in trouble, and to understand nonsense translated into nonsense.
I will probably start the book If I get abroad later in the year….but the wife has a list of DIY projects that will take most of my time when not drinking, sleeping and working…
M27Holts: “… drinking, sleeping and working.” I lke your priorities!
Dawkins has been stripped of his 1996 Humanist of the year award….the objective biological sex v the subjective self identification argument has bitten his arse I believe. Apparently he denied trans-sexuals humanity in a tweet? I read it and didn’t see any content that said that trans-sexuals aren’t human…or is that my natural white northern european unconscious transphobic tendancy?
Dawkins: In 2015, Rachel Dolezal, a white chapter president of NAACP, was vilified for identifying as Black.
Some men choose to identify as women, and some women choose to identify as men. You will be vilified if you deny that they literally are what they identify as. Discuss.
AHA: The evolutionary biologist’s latest comment, the board said, “implies that the identities of transgender individuals are fraudulent, while also simultaneously attacking Black identity as one that can be assumed when convenient”, while his “subsequent attempts at clarification are inadequate and convey neither sensitivity nor sincerity”.
To me they’re essentially restating his point, but without the apparent awareness of its contradictions. One may not speak publicly of any potential contradiction here.
Dawkins is 80 now.
It is likely that he is more belligerent and less coherent than he was 25 years ago.
I think to withdraw an award is not treating him with the respect he has earned.
I will try to forgive him in his decline.
One may not speak publicly of any potential contradiction here.
This is the rule that applies with all puritanical religions. Wokeism is not fundamentally different from its predecessors in this regard.
Poor man. Well, not really. I have a hunch what he really needs is a Curmudgeon award, something I’d sure be proud to have. It would be taken away when they catch you kowtowing to political correctness or public sentiment.
Poor old Dawkins – damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t! Looks like the AHA has become the proverbial asylum run by its inmates! Next thing they’ll be denying evolution or decreeing that the Earth is flat.
Ideally, we ought to be able raise questions like this, when we encounter contradictions, and as he says: Discuss. In this way we shed light on the meaning of what we’re doing.
Unfortunately, it may be that the AHA is right (whether they understand it this way or not) – we can’t afford to ask those questions, because we are unable to hold the discussion.
Oh yeah, plenty of discussion here and ten thousand other places, but of such typically very low quality and shedding so very little light on the matter, that in practice the question may almost be considered disingenuous – one doesn’t ask a question in good faith, if there’s so little likelihood of an illuminating answer.
Brilliant! I haven’t laugh so loud in a long time. Thanks Author! You are a genius
Moses really should have made an appearance in this one. I mean, have you read about what that guy did?!
For some Abrahamics, thieving, raping and killing would appear to be part of their faith based morality