A Catholic documentary proved, or at least supported, the fact of the Virgin Conception and Birth. They highlited a Sacred Turkey Baster in a golden showcase that had the corporate logo of The Archangel Gabriel and contained residue of Deity Ejaculated semen that still glows after two thousand years. Not fake news! Not a hoax!
Slightly off topic, but the linguist John McWhorter makes a very interesting argument that “Billy and me went to the store” is actually better English (in the sense of being more natural English) than the “Billy and I went to the store” rule that gets beaten into us from a young age. The point is that all languages are full of deep subtleties that young children nevertheless manage to pick up effortlessly, so if you have to beat a rule into a child’s head then maybe something is wrong with the rule. (The Atlantic article I linked to is only partly about the “Billy and me” rule — if you are interested there is a podcast where McWhorter goes into the rule in considerably more detail).
Of course this isn’t really applicable here, since even McWhorter would agree that “me want to worship you” is wrong.
jb: I used to listen to McWhorter regularly but got tired what I have come to call his “shakespeare fallacy” statements–that is, a word or phrase that we consider ungrammatical or awkward now is OK because Shakespeare (who couldn’t spell his name the same way twice) used it. The “Billy and me” instance is not quite as flagrant (IMHO) but I’ve never heard of someone getting that “beaten into him” (figuratively, of course). I don’t think ‘Billy and me’ is any more “natural” than ‘Billy and I’. Some of the style rules, like putting the other person’s name first are perhaps “instilled” in us as customary, but that’s different from “beating a rule into a child’s head”
Brilliant episode, Author! One of your best. This is so good on at least two different levels: the silly use of Isaiah to fulfill a prophecy — what I call “prophecy mongering” — and then the coup de grace…the brilliant fake use of quote-mining in the last panel by Mo.
As a side note, the “Immanuel” reference has always confused me since apparently no one actually called Jesus that. (But i’m open to clarification on that point).
Jesus F Iscariot: A Catholic documentary proved, or at least supported, the fact of the Virgin Conception and Birth.
And some prove it is!
Actually, the “fact” of Mary being a virgin at Jesus’ birth was “established” by majority vote (but just barely…) at the Council of Nicea (i. e., the first council) AD 325; only more than 3 centuries afterwards.
Dr John the Wipper: ‘the “fact” … was “established” by majority vote …’ You have seen the minutes of the meeting? Do they show who voted each way, or do they just record the numbers?
Wow, that McWhorter link was a veritable rabbit hole.
If in doubt, say the sentence without anyone else included.
If ‘I’ fits, it’s invariably correct. If it doesn’t, it isn’t.
As for ‘they’ for a gender neutral singular pronoun … it may catch on but i will continue to use ‘se’ ‘hes’ and ‘hem’ even if they don’t catch on.
Jveeds — “Beaten into” is a bit of rhetorical excess, but the fact is that this doesn’t seem to be a rule that English speaking children absorb naturally, but instead acquire only after repeated correction. This is in contrast to some incredibly subtle rules that all native speakers learn without ever even being aware of them. The podcast I linked to goes into this in more detail than the Atlantic article, and it’s a pity there is no transcript.
A particular example is “adjective precedence”. For example, a native speaker might say “a little old red schoolhouse”, but will never say “a red old little schoolhouse”. But why not? Well it turns out that in English, adjectives fall into classes, and the classes always appear in a fixed order (aside from certain exceptions, which follow their own rules). The never taught you about that in school, did they? But then they never needed to, because you (if you learned English as a child) just got it right without thinking.
So why is the “Billy and I” thing different? Why do children need to be corrected, and have it explained to them in detail that since you say “I went to the store” you should therefore also say “Billy and I went to the store”? It’s a telling question, and I think McWhorter is probably on the right track.
Yip. When I bailed my swede out today. Wifey-tifey ponted out that I am definately a low-light sprout merchant…both she and I threw a stitch and considered the vagaries of local colloquialisms…
@Jveeds: I think the Immanuel reference is a retro-fitted prophesy. They pretty much always work as no-one who was around way back then is still around when you make the prophesy, so 100% accurate.
“Billy and me” (or even “me and Billy”) sounds extremely unnatural to me, not because I had anything beaten into me but because I grew up around people who could speak and write using correct grammar so what’s correct sounds natural to me while incorrect grammar hurts. My wife likes to put on “Family Feud” hosted by Steve Harvey while she works in the evenings and his horrible English pains me every time. “Somebody gonna win theyself a lot of money!” (Not to mention his christian hypocrisy.) btw, “I and Billy” sounds wrong because you should always put others first (unless you’re a christian, of course.)
What irks me is when people use “I” after a preposition–for example, “Adam is staying with Bob and I.” I hear this sort of thing much more often than constructions like “Billy and me went to the store.” Nowadays, noticing such grammatical solecisms sometimes is a comforting way of diverting my attention from bigger issues, but other times I feel I’m wrong to care about grammar when there are so many major problems (COVID-19, climate change, racism, fascism–you name it) that need to be addressed :-/ . I think it’s time for me to take a walk outdoors, admire the new autumn leaves, and give my mind a rest!
two cents’ worth — WcWhorter suggests in the Atlantic article (and probably goes into it in more detail in the podcast, but I’m too lazy to check) that the “…staying with Bob and I” mistake is a consequence of imposing the unnatural “Billy and I went…” rule on English grammar. After being required to use “I” in one place where it doesn’t entirely feel right (i.e., as part of a compound subject at the beginning of a sentence), people, out of insecurity, end up using “I” in other places where it doesn’t really belong (e.g., as part of a compound object at the end of a sentence). More evidence that something is amiss.
M27Holts
“”…but it never stphruck your mudhead’s obtundity…that the more carrots you chop, the more turnips you slit, the more murphies you peel, the more onions you cry over, the more bullbeef you butch, the more mutton you crackerhack, the more potherbs you pound, the fiercer the fire and the longer your spoon and the harder you gruel with more grease to your elbow the merrier fumes your new Irish stew.”” – James Joyce
Jesus & Mo (the characters) are absurd, blinkered, and oddly very sweet. J&M (the cartoon) is brilliant: sharp, delicious, irresistible. Salman Rushdie
Jesus and Mo cartoons are wonderfully funny and true. Richard Dawkins
Jesus and Mo make the world a better place, bless their little hearts. Ophelia Benson
In a world defined by outrage and offence and liberal spinelessness, Jesus and Mo is a treasure, whose value we should never fail to recognize. Read them. Laugh. And think. Kenan Malik
The brilliant, celebrated, freaking hilarious atheist comic strip ... Greta Christina
...rays of sanity in a befuddled world. Keri Hulme
The liveliest depictions of Muhammad currently available... Malise Ruthven
J & Mo is the funniest and most consistently thought-provoking cartoon strip on the Net. In a saner world, it would run in a major newspaper. Nelson Jones, Heresy Corner
Consistently amusing, frequently thought-provoking and often heart-warming. New Humanist
Jesus & Mo is one of the most wonderful things on the internet.. JT Eberhard
Wittily captures much of the absurdity of religious apologetics. Mano Singham
I love jesusandmo.net cartoons - witty and sharp! Katha Pollitt
Often hilarious, frequently wry, these cartoons do what all the best cartoons do: they tell the truth through humour. Terry Sanderson, NSS President
...a wonderfully acid British cartoonist... Nick Cohen
I love the scrappy mockery of Jesus and Mo. Freedom of speech
includes the freedom to mock any person, any thing, any activity, and
any belief -- and J&M stands up for this unflinchingly Richard Stallman
...empowering, important and deeply progressive, not to mention hilarious... Council of Ex-Muslims
August 7, 2007
Me agrees.
A Catholic documentary proved, or at least supported, the fact of the Virgin Conception and Birth. They highlited a Sacred Turkey Baster in a golden showcase that had the corporate logo of The Archangel Gabriel and contained residue of Deity Ejaculated semen that still glows after two thousand years. Not fake news! Not a hoax!
…..giving rise to the secret society, The Illuminaughty.
Slightly off topic, but the linguist John McWhorter makes a very interesting argument that “Billy and me went to the store” is actually better English (in the sense of being more natural English) than the “Billy and I went to the store” rule that gets beaten into us from a young age. The point is that all languages are full of deep subtleties that young children nevertheless manage to pick up effortlessly, so if you have to beat a rule into a child’s head then maybe something is wrong with the rule. (The Atlantic article I linked to is only partly about the “Billy and me” rule — if you are interested there is a podcast where McWhorter goes into the rule in considerably more detail).
Of course this isn’t really applicable here, since even McWhorter would agree that “me want to worship you” is wrong.
jb: I used to listen to McWhorter regularly but got tired what I have come to call his “shakespeare fallacy” statements–that is, a word or phrase that we consider ungrammatical or awkward now is OK because Shakespeare (who couldn’t spell his name the same way twice) used it. The “Billy and me” instance is not quite as flagrant (IMHO) but I’ve never heard of someone getting that “beaten into him” (figuratively, of course). I don’t think ‘Billy and me’ is any more “natural” than ‘Billy and I’. Some of the style rules, like putting the other person’s name first are perhaps “instilled” in us as customary, but that’s different from “beating a rule into a child’s head”
Brilliant episode, Author! One of your best. This is so good on at least two different levels: the silly use of Isaiah to fulfill a prophecy — what I call “prophecy mongering” — and then the coup de grace…the brilliant fake use of quote-mining in the last panel by Mo.
As a side note, the “Immanuel” reference has always confused me since apparently no one actually called Jesus that. (But i’m open to clarification on that point).
OOO, i love your language ones!
Jesus F Iscariot:
A Catholic documentary proved, or at least supported, the fact of the Virgin Conception and Birth.
And some prove it is!
Actually, the “fact” of Mary being a virgin at Jesus’ birth was “established” by majority vote (but just barely…) at the Council of Nicea (i. e., the first council) AD 325; only more than 3 centuries afterwards.
Virgin birth? Supposing Mary wasn’t a particularly clean young lady….the holy ghost just jizzed on her feet and the holy bluebottles did the rest…
ETERNAL WALL OF BULLSHIT is still promoting Jesus and Mo.
Dr John the Wipper: ‘the “fact” … was “established” by majority vote …’ You have seen the minutes of the meeting? Do they show who voted each way, or do they just record the numbers?
Wow, that McWhorter link was a veritable rabbit hole.
If in doubt, say the sentence without anyone else included.
If ‘I’ fits, it’s invariably correct. If it doesn’t, it isn’t.
As for ‘they’ for a gender neutral singular pronoun … it may catch on but i will continue to use ‘se’ ‘hes’ and ‘hem’ even if they don’t catch on.
Great fun, Author. I’m always up for word games.
Jveeds — “Beaten into” is a bit of rhetorical excess, but the fact is that this doesn’t seem to be a rule that English speaking children absorb naturally, but instead acquire only after repeated correction. This is in contrast to some incredibly subtle rules that all native speakers learn without ever even being aware of them. The podcast I linked to goes into this in more detail than the Atlantic article, and it’s a pity there is no transcript.
A particular example is “adjective precedence”. For example, a native speaker might say “a little old red schoolhouse”, but will never say “a red old little schoolhouse”. But why not? Well it turns out that in English, adjectives fall into classes, and the classes always appear in a fixed order (aside from certain exceptions, which follow their own rules). The never taught you about that in school, did they? But then they never needed to, because you (if you learned English as a child) just got it right without thinking.
So why is the “Billy and I” thing different? Why do children need to be corrected, and have it explained to them in detail that since you say “I went to the store” you should therefore also say “Billy and I went to the store”? It’s a telling question, and I think McWhorter is probably on the right track.
“Billy and me” .? “me and Billy” is much more natural. “I and Billy” is too horrible for words. Strange isn’t it.
Yip. When I bailed my swede out today. Wifey-tifey ponted out that I am definately a low-light sprout merchant…both she and I threw a stitch and considered the vagaries of local colloquialisms…
@Jveeds: I think the Immanuel reference is a retro-fitted prophesy. They pretty much always work as no-one who was around way back then is still around when you make the prophesy, so 100% accurate.
Me and Bobby McGee.
Len, I see your “Me and Bobby McGee”
and raise you “I and Bragger, and Junior Lee”
from Rickie Lee Jones’ song Coolsville.
Lyrics:
https://www.rickieleejones.com/lyrics/coolsville.html
Video of live show:
https://youtu.be/Dr3siVqjzCY
“Billy and me” (or even “me and Billy”) sounds extremely unnatural to me, not because I had anything beaten into me but because I grew up around people who could speak and write using correct grammar so what’s correct sounds natural to me while incorrect grammar hurts. My wife likes to put on “Family Feud” hosted by Steve Harvey while she works in the evenings and his horrible English pains me every time. “Somebody gonna win theyself a lot of money!” (Not to mention his christian hypocrisy.) btw, “I and Billy” sounds wrong because you should always put others first (unless you’re a christian, of course.)
What drives me crazy is “mute point” instead of “moot point”.
If I meet someone that says it, I want to drown them in a moat. I could lose my mind, and then you never know… That might be what I mete.
Off curse wot I really height is pour spling.
Jesus and Mo and me are all a bit fucking pissed off with the English Language lessons now.
Mockingbird, are you now a spokesbird for J & M?
If so, are they paying you in miracles?
Or merely with thoughts and prayers?
What irks me is when people use “I” after a preposition–for example, “Adam is staying with Bob and I.” I hear this sort of thing much more often than constructions like “Billy and me went to the store.” Nowadays, noticing such grammatical solecisms sometimes is a comforting way of diverting my attention from bigger issues, but other times I feel I’m wrong to care about grammar when there are so many major problems (COVID-19, climate change, racism, fascism–you name it) that need to be addressed :-/ . I think it’s time for me to take a walk outdoors, admire the new autumn leaves, and give my mind a rest!
two cents’ worth — WcWhorter suggests in the Atlantic article (and probably goes into it in more detail in the podcast, but I’m too lazy to check) that the “…staying with Bob and I” mistake is a consequence of imposing the unnatural “Billy and I went…” rule on English grammar. After being required to use “I” in one place where it doesn’t entirely feel right (i.e., as part of a compound subject at the beginning of a sentence), people, out of insecurity, end up using “I” in other places where it doesn’t really belong (e.g., as part of a compound object at the end of a sentence). More evidence that something is amiss.
I always hated English at school…I still fook up my apostrophes to this day…
Fake bible quote generator:
https://phrasegenerator.com/bible
Enjoy!
Laripu: Fake bible quote generator is hilarious! Even funnier than the real thing.
“Me and Mrs Jones, we got a thing going on.”
Billy Paul messing with my grammar in the 70s.
An example: “To Mishma, son of Amasa, thus saith God the Father: collect ye not boxes of curvy swords, but pots of waterfowl.”
I’d like a meal of magret de canard. 🙂
M27Holts
“”…but it never stphruck your mudhead’s obtundity…that the more carrots you chop, the more turnips you slit, the more murphies you peel, the more onions you cry over, the more bullbeef you butch, the more mutton you crackerhack, the more potherbs you pound, the fiercer the fire and the longer your spoon and the harder you gruel with more grease to your elbow the merrier fumes your new Irish stew.”” – James Joyce
Len,
That’s good enough for me and Bobby McGee.
Hey we haven’t seen any female deities or prophetess. Like Maker Baker Eddy, Ellen G. White, and Kali etcetera.