rooted
December 18th, 2024
#ffffff to be precise.
A reminder of the UK parliament’s proposed definition of Islamophobia:
Islamophobia is rooted in racism and is a type of racism that
targets expressions of Muslimness or perceived Muslimness.
Discussion (51)¬
Comment¬
Latest book…
Random oldie…
September 18, 2019-
- NICE T-SHIRT (Thank you for not provoking my uncontrollable lust). Currently unavailable.
Why can’t Jesus cry antisemitism?
The application of the term “racism” to any criticism of Islam has been around for a while now. I usually point out that Islam isn’t a race and if it was it couldn’t prohibit apostasy. If I wanted to I could declare that I am no longer a libertarian, but I can’t declare that I have decided to no longer be white.
Excellent point B’hagen. Nor could one convert to Islam.
That proposed definition of Islamophobia in nonsense.
The way some cries “Islamophobia” to fend of criticism, is quite similar to when others cries “antisemitic” to fend of criticism.
I have nothing against neither Jews nor Muslims in general, but utterly despises both Zionists and Islamist or any other religious fanatics as not better than those known from Apartheid or the Nazists.
I don’t understand why y’all seem to think this is a bad definition. I think this is a pretty OK definition. Under this definition, saying that the Koran is of human origin based on historical fact is _not_ islamophobia.
Just because some people try to abuse the word doesn’t mean muslims don’t face a specific form or racism in several places in the world. Having a definition is a good thing that allows us to distinguish actual islamophobia from abuses of the word.
Implying that muslims don’t face a specific form racism just because some people try to abuse the word to avoid facing criticism of ideas is completely illogical (it’s accepting the confusion that those people are trying to create/exploit), and quite worrying – denying the existence of (certain specific forms of) racism is rarely a good thing.
Numa: I disagree. Killing apostates and homosexuals as instructed by Islamic scripture is an expression of “muslimness”. I reject the notion that opposing this is racism.
Phobia – An irrational or obsessive fear or anxiety, usually of or about something particular. I do not consider fear of a religion that kills apostates and homosexuals, and advocates jihad, to be irrational. Anti-Islamism would be a better term.
Islam is a religion, not a race, nationality or ethnicity. To criticise or mock the tenets of Islam cannot per-se be racist. But…
We’ve got some people abusing the word “Islamophobia” to avoid valid criticism (or even plain mockery) of the ideas behind the religion. Let’s not have that.
But, we’ve also got people hiding their racism behind pretended criticism of Islam. Let’s not have that either.
In Britain, Islam is almost exclusively a religion of dark-skinned immigrants. In my experience, racism is common in Britain. People are racist against Muslims… because Muslims are typically the kind of people that native Britons are racist against.
The religion itself is alien. Like it or not, Britain’s religious background is Christian. Most native Britons will have grown up with exposure to Christian beliefs (though their knowledge of specifics may be sketchy). Islam is foreign, and I would argue subject to the same kinds of misinformation, mistrust, fear and hatred that drives racism.
It’s hard to disentangle mistrust, fear and hatred of the religion Islam from racism against its typical adherent.
Quite rightly, we legislate against racial and religious intolerance, bigotry and hate-speech.
The question for me is whether we need to legislate specifically against “Islamophobia” when we already have legislation against both racial and religious hatred.
But that’s not to deny that “Islamophobia” is a meaningful term, and that Muslims in Britain typically experience a combination of racial and religious bigotry.
Arbeyu: legitimate criticism of Islam and Islamophobia are not mutually exclusive. They can both exist at the same time. I have encountered plenty of boneheads who dislike Islam because they perceive it as a religion of brown people and therefore worthy of disapproval because they don’t like brown people. I also know people (and I include myself in this category) who see Islam as an ideology that is independent of race that is enormously problematic because of its content. The problem with this proposal is that it conflates these two critiques. As an aside I also believe this proposal will be ineffective because people are now sick to death of being told that they are racists or facists if they display the temerity of not blindly parroting whatever our “betters” tell us we are supposed to believe.
@Bvereshagen
I agree with you. And I think that the attempt by the British government to define “Islamophobia” is flawed.
But if we define “Islamophobia” along the lines of “racism plus religious bigotry against Muslims” then it is capturing something real, no? I just don’t see the need to define it legally and legislate against it specifically, when existing legislation covers both racism and religious intolerance.
I don’t know much about Islam. The few Muslims I’ve known have seemed like OK people, certainly no more religiously bonkers than many Christians of my acquaintance. I’ve kind of assumed that, for most, “Being a Muslim” is much the same as “Being a strict Presbyterian”. Both will occasionally shock you with some weird, outdated belief or opinion.
But you do hear about extremely problematic verses in the Koran and hadiths, and statements made by Islamic imams. Perhaps Islam is a particularly egregious religion. Islamism seems to be an ideology that is incompatible with modern liberal democracy.
We’ve got to be able to talk about such things, and protect our democracy without being shouted down or prosecuted for “Islamophobia”.
But we’ve also got to protect British Muslims from genuine racial and sectarian abuse.
“Quite rightly, we legislate against racial and religious intolerance, bigotry and hate-speech.”
“Hate speech” is speech that someone hates. That’s the only kind of speech that anyone will ever try to suppress. If you have laws against hate speech then you don’t have freedom of speech, because any speech that upsets somebody can be characterized as “hate”. If someone doesn’t like brown people he should be free to say “I don’t like brown people and I think they should all be sent home” without fear of the law. He might fear becoming a social pariah, but that’s different, that’s not the law. If he crosses the line into actual harassment or violence that’s also different, that’s the proper domain of the law. But it should not be illegal for people to say what they think, no matter how much someone else might hate their words.
@jb
“Hate speech” is speech that is intended to or likely to stir up hatred or violence against the group being spoken about.
Have a read here:
https://www.gov.scot/publications/hate-crime-and-public-order-scotland-act-factsheet/
Arbeyu? How do you decide which muslims are “safe”? As the statement…those who can be made to believe in absurdities can be made to perform atrocities…we are currently waiting for the next islamist attack on girls and women? Anybody who claims that the Quran is the word of god is dangerous? Or is that just plain Islamophobia?
@M27Holts.
You’re asking the right person, because obviously I do have all the answers.
Maybe we treat everyone as individuals and on a case-by-case basis?
Or is that horribly naive and right-on of me?
Arbeyu: I believe that being an overt racist makes one an asshole. Being an asshole( in and of itself) is worthy of social opprobrium but not legal sanctions, and someone’s hurt feelings are definitely not worthy of legal sanctions. If someone’s idiot assholery moves into the realm of violence or incitement to violence then those activities are already illegal. The last thing we need is more laws against things that are already illegal.
#ffffff to be precise.- I’d say that’s gold, but the irony would break a spring.
Bvereshagen: “Killing apostates and homosexuals as instructed by Islamic scripture is an expression of “muslimness”. I reject the notion that opposing this is racism.” In context, that’s quite a strawman. You’re not seriously thinking the UK parliament wants to make it illegal to oppose murder?
HaggisForBrains: “Phobia […]”. Well natural languages are complicated. Homophobia does not mean an irrational fear of homosexuals. I wish natural languages were more logical and consistent, but they aren’t.
“We’ve got some people abusing the word “Islamophobia” to avoid valid criticism (or even plain mockery) of the ideas behind the religion. Let’s not have that. But, we’ve also got people hiding their racism behind pretended criticism of Islam. Let’s not have that either.” Yes, nicely said, exactly that. And for that we must reject equating islamophobia with criticism of Islam. The confusion only helps two kind of people: those who want to dismiss legitimate criticism, and those who want to hide their racism.
@jb and bvereshagen
The right to free speech and the right to be an arsehole are important. But those, and all other rights end absolutely where another’s rights begin.
We’ve decided that people have a right to live without fear and free from verbal, psychological and physical abuse. And we’ve decided that a person’s religion, ethnicity and sexuality have legally protected status. One may disagree with these societal decisions, and that’s one’s right. One may argue against them, and that’s one’s right too, and part of a healthy democracy.
Flawed though the Scottish legislation may be, it attempts to capture the cumulative toxic effect of continual “free speech and arseholery” against a person’s minority group. These things matter. People’s lives are blighted.
It’s naive to think that social pressure to not be an arsehole is enough. Clearly it isn’t. Legislation is needed.
Taking the piss out of somebodies socially accepted delusions and yes socially accepted intolerances (ok when religion instructs you to be a mysoginist or homohating) is not racist end of. I equally despise snow white baptists as much as those with different genes so how can I be racist? Being horrified by those allowed to chop bits off xy children does not make me anti semitic or islamaphobic does it?
The sooner that religions are consigned to the bin of bad ideas the better and surely we are all agreed on that!
Anyway at 0930 the morrow we are furthest away from the sun here in the Northern Hemisphere! So get out the strong dark ales and single malts and eat your bodyweight in all kinds of meats, cheeses, nuts, crisps, pies and puddings…oh and have plenty of hows-yer-father….merry solstice feasting fellow sapiens….
I would make a comment about what just happened in Magdeburg, but I’m afraid I would be accused of racism.
I was told by a friend who is head of security at the Trafford Centre that UK xmas markets were likely attacks this winter. I went into Manchester xmas markets last friday, the security presence visible was only 1% of the actual special branch presence according to my mate…the cost to the tax payer is ridiculous…who needs the threat from these muslim tosspots!
According to the BBC, the suspect is strongly anti-Muslim, so make of that what you will.
We can condemn the perpetrator, and we must condemn whatever toxic ideology infected him, be it religious or secular.
But let us not forget in our outrage that innocent people have died, and the effect it must have on those who loved them. My thoughts with them.
May I offer congratulations for a pretty thoughtful conversation. It seems to me that in addition to the ambiguities of natural language, and the ambiguity (if we care) of what may be the motives behind someone’s utterances, there’s a fundamentally grey area in our own minds. I don’t really know what it’s like in the UK, but we know racism in the US, and I think it’s increasingly understood that you’re going to be somewhat racist even if you disapprove of it.
I mean, we’re trying to think with an organ that’s suspiciously reminiscent of cold oatmeal, and it doesn’t subscribe to any policies whatever. This gelatinous mass supports us in the concoction of theories and explanations that may seem pretty compelling, but when we go about our daily lives that stuff is just a dream. You can have a very rational opposition to toxic theology (as one should), and a firm conviction that all men (and women, mutatis mutandis) are born equal, but somewhere in that mush there is practically bound to be some racism if you have spent time in an environment that supports it.
I think atheists are in a somewhat privileged position here, because we don’t play favorites. The religions of white and brown are equally invalid. The Author stands at the ramparts defending the right to ridicule Islam, and gets his credentials to do so by ridiculing Christianity. That’s a good example for us.
The BBC blame white men for everything I’m afraid….
Happy Solstice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x2SvqhfevE
@M27Holts
Except the BBC reports the suspect as being an immigrant from Saudi Arabia who has rejected Islam, become anti-Muslim, has expressed approval for Germany’s far-right party on social media, retweeted conspiracy theory posts about secret government plans to Islamise Europe, and complained about the German government’s treatment of female Saudi immigrants.
M27Holts: strange as it might seem at this time of year the Earth is pretty near perihelion (closest point to the Sun) in its orbit and at aphelion in July. So it could have been worse- for North Hemisphere denizens, that is.
https://www.astronomy.com/science/how-big-is-earths-orbit-around-the-sun/
Arbeyu, If he was anti muslim then surely driving his 4×4 through crowds outside a mosque on a friday would be more likely? If he was anti muslim why would he care aboutvthe treatment of muslim women? I think the authorities are telling lies. He is no more an ex muslim as Osama bin laden…pull the other one…
Perihelion Aye. But Northern hemisphere inclination awau from sun…thus I was running through a hail storm in the pitch black at 05:30 this morning…
And today at 05:00 it’s 11 celsius on the 24/12…not very seasonal, warm and wet!!!
This is the wife of Darwin Harmless. I have sad news: Darwin Harmless has died.
His quality of life had been diminishing over the past year and half, and he finally decided that ‘the party was over’ and it was time to ask for MAID (Medical Assistance in Dying).
He died on Wednesday, September 25 at 8:30pm in our home, surrounded by family and friends. In the three days leading up to his death, many friends and neighbours came by in the afternoons to spend time with us. Close friends and family were here in the evenings. People shared memories, songs, laughter, joy and love with us. We had what amounted to a Celebration of Life, with Darwin Harmless in attendance. It was exactly the sendoff that he wanted.
He asked me to let the Jesus and Mo crowd know, saying “You might let them know I’ve left the party and they should hoist a virtual pint in my memory.”
This is very sad. I’m sorry for your loss, Mrs Harmless. Darwin was a valued commenter here – funny, wise and always on point. We haven’t heard from him for a while, so we were already missing him before this sad news. I’ll always remember him as the man who turned a Jesus & Mo comic into a song which he put up on YouTube. May his memory be a blessing.
I will raise a glass to Darwin Harmless at Hogmanay!
And I’m sure that nude geezer from the nether-nether lands may raise something or other in his honour also…
Aye.
Today I raise a Weizen, tomorrow a Tripel, and the day after that a Napoleon in memory.
That’s very sad news. I read and appreciated many of his thoughtful contributions over a long period. Sincere sympathy to his family and friends.
From that “nude geezer” (not with these temperatures!)
Thanks for all, Harmless!
I will have a Tripel on you now, a Napoleon brandy tomorrow, and a Weizen the day after in your memory.
Strength to the loved ones.
Thanks for all your comments Darwin Harmless. You’ll be missed around J&M and I will down a glass to you today.
To Mrs. DH: may I add my condolences?
We have lost a great voice and, in the unlikely event that we have all been wrong, I am sure that complaints are already being made to The Management. He will not be forgotten by his readers.
Unlikely? H’m it’s unlikely that the shirts will get a single point at Old Trafford tonight…thus DH stood in front of a living god is not unlikely it’s probably twelve trillion to 1, though the bookies would never give you those odds, even though they they would have to die and then return to have the proof to pay out…
I just read that Darwin Harmless has walked on.
My condolences to his loved ones.
I, too, wish to offer my condolences to the family and friends of Darwin Harmless. Here is a fine example of his skillful, soulful style. https://www.jesusandmo.net/comic/apes/
Dear Mrs Harmless, I’m so sorry to learn of your loss, but relieved to hear that he had the end he wanted, as did my late wife 12 years ago. I remember discussing MAID with him at that time. He is sorely missed here. Thank you for letting us know.
Take care,
Colin.
Haha, I remember that geezer who had problems with couples who were trying risky sex…
And went to the zoo, trying to see the chimpanzees acting out a typhoo tea advert from the 1970’s….🤣
Is anyone else having trouble getting the next comic? This one does not have a link after “Random”, but I see the next one has appeared on WEIT.
I cannot see a last button?
Haggis, there wasn’t a new comic on Xmas day – i just put out an old one on the Patreon and Twitter to tide things over. There is a new one today though – the button should appear in a minute
Thanks, Author.