Actually the judeo-Christian story starts with Adam and Eve, continues through Abraham (whose people helped build things in the land of mobuments). Then continues on to the Christian bit. To clarify the jews made bricks which were not used in great mobuments but created early council houses.
But I do love the idea of mobuments, stone henge, pyramids all over the world and of course Anfield stadium. All great religious monuments created without any reference to jesus or mo. Let us embrace horus, the horned god and Shankly.
Deimos: Actually the judeo-Christian story starts with Adam and Eve
AHAIK, not correct. The Judean story starts with Adam and Lilith, but Lilith was too little humble, and was expelled; after which JWH created Eva.
Gives also a little more body to the xtian bible which has Kain take a wife and build his own tribe. Who else could that wife have been but a daughter of Lilith?
Dr J the W: Cain bred with a sister born o Adam and Eve. God can whine about apples, but given that part/all of him raped his mother Blessed Ex-Virgin Mary he lost all privileges around bitching about incest. Motherf—ker.
Man, I can’t stand pre-supps. It’s just such a poor argument but they present it like a dog turd that’s been rollled in glitter. If you think atheists are smug, just spend an hour in discussion with a pre-supp. It’s mind numbing
I had never heard of presuppositionalism before this strip.
It seems to me that it can’t fails immediately in literal form, because the origin myths of all the religious books are disproven by elementary science. And science as a method and discipline is confirmed by it’s utility: Antibiotics work, faith healing doesn’t. Even Mississippi faith healers want antibiotics for the gonorrhea they got from their 14-year-old niece, who got it from her father. 😉 (I don’t know whether that’s true, but it really feels like it must have been, at least once. 🙂 )
So if literal presuppositionalism fails, they’re stuck with a weaker version: “you can only reason because there’s a god”. But once the sectarian parts have been debunked, the usual valid question of which sectarian representation is valid is still a stumbling block for that line of muddled thinking. If I can only reason because of a god, then I choose Dionysus. Or the one with the noodly appendage.
Religion is and has always been about overcoming the fear of death, and fear of death is something we have because it is an evolved trait. Fear of death leads us to avoid it, conferring a survival benefit.
Reply to doctor john : I concede your point on Lilith, sometimes I forget I’m on j&m not a less learned site. I love the name Lilith but was outvoted by my daughters when naming our Alpha Bitch Spaniel, the next female animal is definitely getting the name.
@ Okapi: No thanks, I saw Matt Dillahunty´s debate wyth Sy something-or-other. It was painful. Just some circles sometimes not-so-well-hidden amongst a bunch of unfounded assertions.
From what I can make of the wikipedia summaries, the Lilith & Adam story is more like something someone made up as a joke, and the only thing that lends it credibility is that the story was made up over a 1000 years ago.
As for religious institutions vs. logic, I’d put my money on the Buddhists. Pro league where the Christians are amateurs.
Regarding Lilith.
In 1987, I wrote the poem below, in Adam’s voice. What you should notice is that while Adam is articulate, he doesn’t know the words for “cry” and “kiss”, and consequently must circumlocute to speak about these things. He’s an emotional dolt. As are many of us.
Lilith and Eve
I had planted some flowers
near the clearing where we slept,
for their fragrance
and because Eve found them beautiful.
To distract her from a sting, once,
I cut some for her, saying,
– for your sake I cut these, that the bees will not return –
Eve then did a pleasant thing,
her mouth warm upon my mouth.
Lilith came to ridicule my love of order
as I planted the garden.
– The fruit of which you also eat –
I said. But Lilith kicked the cabbages
and pulled down the vines
and ran away making hurtful noises,
water streaming from her eyes.
I thought to meet this scorn with kindness
and cut some flowers for Lilith.
Was she not also Woman?
Would she not find similar joy?
Lilith threw them down and railed against
the blandness of my logic,
saying she preferred wildflowers
growing where they would,
or any that had not suffered my touch.
I started to turn away.
Lilith roughly grasped me to her
and did the thing that Eve had done,
with her mouth,
but forcefully, not as Eve had done it.
I pulled back when her teeth drew blood from my lips.
I was strangely moved.
But in that rough clasp I knew for the first time
I will never understand their truths,
Eve’s, or Lilith’s, or those of their kind.
And then, unknown to Him,
I sinned the first sin,
anterior to that of Eve when she took the sweet fruit.
For I thought
– their Creator’s love for them cannot exceed mine –
And the taste of this was as a bitter root.
Laripu, not a hint if a lust-filled threesome amongst the lotus flowers and taking liberties with that sneaky sepents tail during his refractory period…
Son of Glenner,
In the spirit of autokorrekt…
.
.
.
my eyes ain’t what they used to was,
and neither is my brain.
I type this on my cell phone:
clumsy thumbs, like sheaves of grain.
I do my best, but there’s autokorrekt,
and really I’m not that circumspect.
Do all y’all deserve perfection?
Nope, not in an eight line quatrain. 😉 😀
I saw a (German) discussion program recently where one of the guests had been a paramedic. He’d volunteered to work in Saudi Arabia (not sure why). It was traumatic for him: in Germany about 20% of emergencies were traffic accidents. In Riad it was 80% because they don’t wear safety belts and drive like lunatics. “If God wants me to die, a safety belt won’t help.” Also, if the woman passenger is dying he wasn’t allowed to touch her unless the oldest male gave the ok… so he just had to watch them die. And the women aren’t ‘allowed’ to wear belts, because the men think it insults their driving skills… etc, etc.
11. Thou shalt not eat Bacon.
12. Fish are ok, except for the liver, the ovaries, eyes, and skin of a puffy fish (which you don’t know about) on the other side of the world (which, by the way, is more or less spherical).
13. Thou shalt wash thy hands and instruments before engaging in surgical procedures, for I have created lots of invisible little beasties which will kill you if you don’t.
14. Thou shalt not, I repeat NOT, cut off any bits of the females’ embarrassing bits for to do so is to imply that my creation was not perfect.
15. Thou shalt cut off a little bit of the males’ embarrassing bits.
OY. Just had a bacon barm, in definance of your anti bacon edict, now for the interesting dichotomy, who is in the brown hemisphere (not the red) when it comes to the sauce?
@M27
Umm, no sauce at all! Are you mad?
Also, I don’t know what a “barm” is. My dad came from “oop north” where a bacon sandwich is:
1. Bacon, tomato and mushroom slices fried in butter.
2. White bread (spread with butter) fried and soaking up the juices from step 1.
I was trying to come up with offensive cartoons for all three Abrahamic religions. I was wondering whether one could show such (as a test) to prospective immigrants and ask them whether it was legal to publish these.
a) a large piggy in the clouds passing stone tablets to a bearded man saying “thou shalt not eat bacon!”
b) three cyclists: flat pedals, clipless pedals, nails. Emaciated beardless chap recommending nails?
c) bunch of dark-bearded men coming up with rules: “thou shall not have intercourse with children!” “Under the age of six” adds one…
A barm is short for barm cake, which is a round dome shaped bread (roll) with a flat bottom. It is savoury and sliced , then liberal butter/marge applied then 3 slices of smoked bacon with lashings of HP sauce. Other heathens call barms various names such as muffin, roll, stottie etc…but true north manc is where the chip/bacon barm rules…
Jesus & Mo (the characters) are absurd, blinkered, and oddly very sweet. J&M (the cartoon) is brilliant: sharp, delicious, irresistible. Salman Rushdie
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The liveliest depictions of Muhammad currently available... Malise Ruthven
J & Mo is the funniest and most consistently thought-provoking cartoon strip on the Net. In a saner world, it would run in a major newspaper. Nelson Jones, Heresy Corner
Consistently amusing, frequently thought-provoking and often heart-warming. New Humanist
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Wittily captures much of the absurdity of religious apologetics. Mano Singham
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Often hilarious, frequently wry, these cartoons do what all the best cartoons do: they tell the truth through humour. Terry Sanderson, NSS President
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includes the freedom to mock any person, any thing, any activity, and
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April 1, 2009
Hm. Wasn’t the myth-man Jesus invented long after men had been using maths to build quite oustanding mobuments? Just askin?
Oh, and i’m having Mobuments…large structures built with loads of peoples….
This comic should be read in context with “Usage” (4-Aug-21): https://www.jesusandmo.net/comic/usage/
Well, that’s an idea all right.
Just don’t say mobuments in Catalonia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castell?wprov=sfla1
Tower of Babel would be an example of mobument.
Actually the judeo-Christian story starts with Adam and Eve, continues through Abraham (whose people helped build things in the land of mobuments). Then continues on to the Christian bit. To clarify the jews made bricks which were not used in great mobuments but created early council houses.
But I do love the idea of mobuments, stone henge, pyramids all over the world and of course Anfield stadium. All great religious monuments created without any reference to jesus or mo. Let us embrace horus, the horned god and Shankly.
Deimos:
Actually the judeo-Christian story starts with Adam and Eve
AHAIK, not correct. The Judean story starts with Adam and Lilith, but Lilith was too little humble, and was expelled; after which JWH created Eva.
Gives also a little more body to the xtian bible which has Kain take a wife and build his own tribe. Who else could that wife have been but a daughter of Lilith?
Here’s a comic with the “proof” of God’s Intelligent Design: http://www.doug-long.com/idproof.jpg
Dr J the W: Cain bred with a sister born o Adam and Eve. God can whine about apples, but given that part/all of him raped his mother Blessed Ex-Virgin Mary he lost all privileges around bitching about incest. Motherf—ker.
Anne-Failed? Mobument schism 1…Old Trafford clearly as it is also called “The Theatre of Dreams”….
M27 – Mobuments, Love it !
The Eternal Wall of Bullshit must be the ultimate example.
Man, I can’t stand pre-supps. It’s just such a poor argument but they present it like a dog turd that’s been rollled in glitter. If you think atheists are smug, just spend an hour in discussion with a pre-supp. It’s mind numbing
I had never heard of presuppositionalism before this strip.
It seems to me that it can’t fails immediately in literal form, because the origin myths of all the religious books are disproven by elementary science. And science as a method and discipline is confirmed by it’s utility: Antibiotics work, faith healing doesn’t. Even Mississippi faith healers want antibiotics for the gonorrhea they got from their 14-year-old niece, who got it from her father. 😉 (I don’t know whether that’s true, but it really feels like it must have been, at least once. 🙂 )
So if literal presuppositionalism fails, they’re stuck with a weaker version: “you can only reason because there’s a god”. But once the sectarian parts have been debunked, the usual valid question of which sectarian representation is valid is still a stumbling block for that line of muddled thinking. If I can only reason because of a god, then I choose Dionysus. Or the one with the noodly appendage.
Religion is and has always been about overcoming the fear of death, and fear of death is something we have because it is an evolved trait. Fear of death leads us to avoid it, conferring a survival benefit.
Except maybe in Mississippi, where lack of fear of death leads people to embrace it: Mississippi governor Tate Reeves says that his people take fewer precautions against covid because they believe they’re going to heaven when they die. I like the name of the tv station reporting that: WDAM. https://www.wdam.com/2021/08/31/tate-reeves-christians-are-less-scared-covid-because-their-belief-eternal-life/
Reply to doctor john : I concede your point on Lilith, sometimes I forget I’m on j&m not a less learned site. I love the name Lilith but was outvoted by my daughters when naming our Alpha Bitch Spaniel, the next female animal is definitely getting the name.
@ Okapi: No thanks, I saw Matt Dillahunty´s debate wyth Sy something-or-other. It was painful. Just some circles sometimes not-so-well-hidden amongst a bunch of unfounded assertions.
From what I can make of the wikipedia summaries, the Lilith & Adam story is more like something someone made up as a joke, and the only thing that lends it credibility is that the story was made up over a 1000 years ago.
As for religious institutions vs. logic, I’d put my money on the Buddhists. Pro league where the Christians are amateurs.
Donn – So 1000 year old bollox is more credible than modern bollox ?
Presuppositionalism occurred in the presuppository era.
Regarding Lilith.
In 1987, I wrote the poem below, in Adam’s voice. What you should notice is that while Adam is articulate, he doesn’t know the words for “cry” and “kiss”, and consequently must circumlocute to speak about these things. He’s an emotional dolt. As are many of us.
Lilith and Eve
I had planted some flowers
near the clearing where we slept,
for their fragrance
and because Eve found them beautiful.
To distract her from a sting, once,
I cut some for her, saying,
– for your sake I cut these, that the bees will not return –
Eve then did a pleasant thing,
her mouth warm upon my mouth.
Lilith came to ridicule my love of order
as I planted the garden.
– The fruit of which you also eat –
I said. But Lilith kicked the cabbages
and pulled down the vines
and ran away making hurtful noises,
water streaming from her eyes.
I thought to meet this scorn with kindness
and cut some flowers for Lilith.
Was she not also Woman?
Would she not find similar joy?
Lilith threw them down and railed against
the blandness of my logic,
saying she preferred wildflowers
growing where they would,
or any that had not suffered my touch.
I started to turn away.
Lilith roughly grasped me to her
and did the thing that Eve had done,
with her mouth,
but forcefully, not as Eve had done it.
I pulled back when her teeth drew blood from my lips.
I was strangely moved.
But in that rough clasp I knew for the first time
I will never understand their truths,
Eve’s, or Lilith’s, or those of their kind.
And then, unknown to Him,
I sinned the first sin,
anterior to that of Eve when she took the sweet fruit.
For I thought
– their Creator’s love for them cannot exceed mine –
And the taste of this was as a bitter root.
Laripu, not a hint if a lust-filled threesome amongst the lotus flowers and taking liberties with that sneaky sepents tail during his refractory period…
M27Holts, the female audience for whom that was meant would have been less appreciative of Eden-porn that you might be.
Anyone “Adam knew Eve” doesn’t have enough prurient appeal.
That should be “than” and “anyhow”.
Laripu: Always proofread and, if necessary, korrekt, before hitting “submit”!
Son of Glenner,
In the spirit of autokorrekt…
.
.
.
my eyes ain’t what they used to was,
and neither is my brain.
I type this on my cell phone:
clumsy thumbs, like sheaves of grain.
I do my best, but there’s autokorrekt,
and really I’m not that circumspect.
Do all y’all deserve perfection?
Nope, not in an eight line quatrain. 😉 😀
Laripu: Beautifully proofred and autocorrectit!
Poetry was one of those things forced onto us at skool. Twas more unfathomable than the heisenberg uncertainty maths to me….
@Laripu
I saw a (German) discussion program recently where one of the guests had been a paramedic. He’d volunteered to work in Saudi Arabia (not sure why). It was traumatic for him: in Germany about 20% of emergencies were traffic accidents. In Riad it was 80% because they don’t wear safety belts and drive like lunatics. “If God wants me to die, a safety belt won’t help.” Also, if the woman passenger is dying he wasn’t allowed to touch her unless the oldest male gave the ok… so he just had to watch them die. And the women aren’t ‘allowed’ to wear belts, because the men think it insults their driving skills… etc, etc.
11. Thou shalt not eat Bacon.
12. Fish are ok, except for the liver, the ovaries, eyes, and skin of a puffy fish (which you don’t know about) on the other side of the world (which, by the way, is more or less spherical).
13. Thou shalt wash thy hands and instruments before engaging in surgical procedures, for I have created lots of invisible little beasties which will kill you if you don’t.
14. Thou shalt not, I repeat NOT, cut off any bits of the females’ embarrassing bits for to do so is to imply that my creation was not perfect.
15. Thou shalt cut off a little bit of the males’ embarrassing bits.
OY. Just had a bacon barm, in definance of your anti bacon edict, now for the interesting dichotomy, who is in the brown hemisphere (not the red) when it comes to the sauce?
Oh, and just played a game of “PC wobbly, hides his helmet” in defiance of you last similarly facist edict…
@M27
Umm, no sauce at all! Are you mad?
Also, I don’t know what a “barm” is. My dad came from “oop north” where a bacon sandwich is:
1. Bacon, tomato and mushroom slices fried in butter.
2. White bread (spread with butter) fried and soaking up the juices from step 1.
Re: the bacon
I was trying to come up with offensive cartoons for all three Abrahamic religions. I was wondering whether one could show such (as a test) to prospective immigrants and ask them whether it was legal to publish these.
a) a large piggy in the clouds passing stone tablets to a bearded man saying “thou shalt not eat bacon!”
b) three cyclists: flat pedals, clipless pedals, nails. Emaciated beardless chap recommending nails?
c) bunch of dark-bearded men coming up with rules: “thou shall not have intercourse with children!” “Under the age of six” adds one…
A barm is short for barm cake, which is a round dome shaped bread (roll) with a flat bottom. It is savoury and sliced , then liberal butter/marge applied then 3 slices of smoked bacon with lashings of HP sauce. Other heathens call barms various names such as muffin, roll, stottie etc…but true north manc is where the chip/bacon barm rules…