Wikipedia starts its explanation with a warning:
“This article may be too technical for most readers to understand”.
Nevertheless, I managed to get to the second paragraph, and gave up although I realize the enormous importance of a difference between Eastern and Western Christianity:
…For some, the term implies a serious underestimation of the Father’s role in the Trinity; for others, denial of what it expresses implies a serious underestimation of the role of the Son in the Trinity…
It helped me too, to fully appreciate the joke.
.-
Apparently Lent this year began on March 1 and ends on April 13. So I’ve missed half of it, and that doesn’t bother me at all. I’ve decided to give up correcting people who are wrong on the Internet. Turned out to be futile anyway.
Paul Braterman, thanks for introducing me to the Filioque. I was totally unaware that such an emotionally charged and crucial (sarcasm font needed here) controversy existed, or even could exist, among intelligent people. The bible banging website, gotquestions.org (The Bible has answers. We’ll help you find them. !!!!) concludes it’s discussion of this topic with these sentences: “The question of whether the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father, or by the Father and the Son, likely cannot be decisively answered, nor does it absolutely need to be. The filioque clause will perhaps have to remain a controversy.”
To which I can only say, no shit, Sherlock. I can think of no question with less relevance to human health and happiness than this one.
Author, once again, thanks for stimulating such educational discussions.
target tee – the only way to do this on Patreon at the moment is to become a Patron, pledge the amount you want to donate, and then stop your pledge after the first payment has been made. People have done it before and it works fine. Thanks for asking!
My mother once gave up chocolate for Lent. She ate so many cinnamon buns instead that she gained 10 pounds in 40 days. That was the last time she ever gave up chocolate for Lent.
Are Catholics the only ones who give things up for Lent, or do members of other Christian sects do so as well?
@Paul Braterman
You made me learn about the Filioque today – thanks!
@Darwin Harmless
I haven’t found yet a comment of yours that’s not worth reading… Talking about irrelevant issues within religion, how about Mary’s virginity? Apparently, it’s extremely important for Christians (at least it is for Catholics), but I honestly don’t see how its absence would affect the Christian ideology at all. Maybe the Filioque is even less important.
Both Paul Braterman’s “Filioque” and Friendly Extremist’s “Mary’s virginity” help me to understand the self-inflicted nature of (far too) many persons who just WANT, SEARCH to be happy sustaining stupid controversies at gunpoint. Sometimes, the world turns out to be stranger than one thought already!
.-
Let me add my voice to the “filioque” thank yous. I was raised a Catholic and never heard the term or the controversy. Of course, international politics and intrigue are never too far from religious doctrine. In the account at the attached, it notes (regarding the reconciliation of eastern and western christianity) “Unfortunately, the union did not last. In the 1450s (just decades before the Protestant Reformation), the Eastern Orthodox left the Church again under pressure from the Muslims, who had just conquered them and who insisted they renounce their union with the Western Church (lest Western Christians come to their aid militarily).” Of course those were the good ole days when it was just Christians and Muslims. Now, you’ve got dozens of strains fighting it out, just from those two religions alone, not to mention the others. https://www.catholic.com/tract/filioque
Friendly Extremist, there are a couple of possibilities as to why Mary’s virginity is deemed so vital. Had she been sexually active then the paternity of Jesus would be in serious doubt. Being a virgin meant that the brat had to have been supernaturally conceived (not that an unmarried teenage girl would lie about her virginity in such liberal times, eh?). This is what passes as evidence for J.C’s divinity to the razor-sharp minds of the believers!
Then again, with God being all Alpha and what-not, maybe she had to be pure so that the faithful didn’t have to think that he would even consider used-goods. Or possibly it’s just that as an unwed teenager, being non-virgin would make her a slutty-slut-slut, and there’s no way that the baby Jesus meek and mild would be born to a slutty-slut-slut! Anyway, it’s hard giving birth to the Messiah when you’ve been beaten or stoned to death for being a slutty-slut-slut and disgracing your family / rabbi / village.
Regarding the virginity of Mary, the original term applied to her (I can’t recall whether it was in Greek, Aramaic, or early Hebrew) actually translated to a woman of childbearing age who had not yet born children. In medical-ese, this is called nulliparous. The virginity part was merely assumed and then tagged on, later. (Apologies for lack of reference link, but I’m sure, as with fillioque, someone will find a good one.)
Well Alexis. Good luck on giving up mass. There are an endless list of lifestyle/reality shows helping people do exactly that. If you succeed giving up mass you will singularly be doing the televiewing public a great service but thereby destroying a whole genre of mindless airtime for the masses. Its a bugger that may cause social conflict (you really need to consider the wider part of society before you defy them and science). The masses watch endless hours of others giving up mass and you will prove it can be done without effort. Aaaggghhhh, my mind is doing cartwheels and in the background intelligent society is saying “huzzah” and the mindless are wondering what they will watch and the church is considering the weighty matter of what to do on Sunday and my finger hurts typing his. May your higher entity go with you 😉
Son of Glenner – I find it hilarious that everyone is freaking out over a guy who killed 5 people outside of parliament when inside there’s a bunch of folks dismantling the NHS and endangering the lives of thousands. Same in the US, when the GOP is on the one hand scaremongering because of ISIS and on the other hand trying to pass a health plan that is estimated by their own staticians to probably kill 70.000 citizens within the next couple of years.
No worries, mate. Admittedly, at first I gulped, but your “joke” left no bad aftertaste. I’m sure nothing soiled your lent vow regarding bawdy innuendos. You’ve come away with a clean vest. ^_^
AoS: would completely bugger up Einstein’s famous equation
No, it would not. But it would be completely unexpected new technology (currently only to be found in some SF) AND it would be quite an explosion! In the average nucluar detonation typically only a tiny fraction of a gram is converted, so the total conversion of ONLY ONE adult person would surely bring on Nuclear Winter, if nothing much more serious….
At the moment I am remembering the wonderous two years I spent being teetotal, two of the worst, most awkward and boring years ever. All things in moderation especially moderation.
@wo cents’ worth
Christians of all denominations that I know of give up things for Lent.
My mother (variously Episcopalian and Presbyterian Church of Scotland) gave up chocolate one year and alcohol another and so on… But she never started eating/drinking/etc again after Lent was over.
Now just about the only thing left in her life that she does for pleasure and could therefore meaningfully give up for Lent is, rather ironically, Christianity.
Giving something up for a religion, or religious ritual, is one of the many reasons I turned my back to Catholicism.
I prefer the concept that one should want to give up a vice or aspect of their lives that they no longer wish to indulge or experience, simply because that is their choice and they feel their life will be better without it.
They don’t need some stringent doctrine to tell them what free will could say just as easily.
AoS:
I used “worldwide” in the sense of the wiki article: the sum of energy “generated” all over the globe in the commercial sense, ie “converted into a usable form” in scientific sense.
It includes all energy “generated” from fossil, nuclear, hydro, wind, solar and bio sources.
I think I just had one of them epiphany things. According to dissonance theory, a person will be much more reluctant to accept evidence against a belief if they have made an investment in that belief. For example, it’s the guy who sold all his possessions in anticipation of the rapture who is more willing to accept the guru’s explanation for why the rapture didn’t happen on schedule. It’s the young Mormon who has done his mission and become an elder who is much less likely to give up his belief in Mormonism. It’s the Jehovah’s Witness who has endured abuse knocking on doors who is more likely to cling to their beliefs.
With this in mind, giving up something for lent makes perfect sense. It’s an investment in the belief system, which makes it harder to examine the belief system critically.
DH,
Absolutely agree. Every person is bound to have an adamant latching onto an ideal or belief of some sort in their lives, and the easily-led religious are glowing examples of this.
[Must resist pun about light and blindness].
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July 22, 2015
hmm. maybe I should give up science for lent.
I wish I’d thought of that.
My favourite Lent joke is:
Pope to Patriarch: What should I give up for Lent?
Patriarch to Pope: How about the Filioque?
Sinners thou must repent
Give up something for lent
For actual results
Dispose of cults
Have them back to the levant sent.
Ha! Didn’t know what the Filloque was; had to go find out that point, now the whole cartoon is even funnier!
Whey-hey! Cheers chaps.
Wikipedia starts its explanation with a warning:
“This article may be too technical for most readers to understand”.
Nevertheless, I managed to get to the second paragraph, and gave up although I realize the enormous importance of a difference between Eastern and Western Christianity:
…For some, the term implies a serious underestimation of the Father’s role in the Trinity; for others, denial of what it expresses implies a serious underestimation of the role of the Son in the Trinity…
It helped me too, to fully appreciate the joke.
.-
For Lent, I should give up allowing people to borrow my things.
What am I giving up for Lent? Giving things up; I’m no quitter!
Someone, very subtle. 🙂
How can one donate a one time amount to Jesus and Mo, without becoming a patron?
I decided to give up bawdy innuendo, but it’s SO hard……
When I was 14 (55 years ago) I gave up guilt for Lent. It felt so good I stayed with that since.
Apparently Lent this year began on March 1 and ends on April 13. So I’ve missed half of it, and that doesn’t bother me at all. I’ve decided to give up correcting people who are wrong on the Internet. Turned out to be futile anyway.
Paul Braterman, thanks for introducing me to the Filioque. I was totally unaware that such an emotionally charged and crucial (sarcasm font needed here) controversy existed, or even could exist, among intelligent people. The bible banging website, gotquestions.org (The Bible has answers. We’ll help you find them. !!!!) concludes it’s discussion of this topic with these sentences: “The question of whether the Holy Spirit was sent by the Father, or by the Father and the Son, likely cannot be decisively answered, nor does it absolutely need to be. The filioque clause will perhaps have to remain a controversy.”
To which I can only say, no shit, Sherlock. I can think of no question with less relevance to human health and happiness than this one.
Author, once again, thanks for stimulating such educational discussions.
Well sister, since we’re supposed to give up something really, really important, I’m going to give up mass…ouch ouch ouch.
Actually, I give up fish for dinner especially on Fridays.
I’ve given up piracy on the high seas for Lent. Those who venture on the low seas are still fair game.
Any thoughts on certain events outside Houses of Parliament, and on Westminster Bridge, this afternoon?
target tee – the only way to do this on Patreon at the moment is to become a Patron, pledge the amount you want to donate, and then stop your pledge after the first payment has been made. People have done it before and it works fine. Thanks for asking!
My mother once gave up chocolate for Lent. She ate so many cinnamon buns instead that she gained 10 pounds in 40 days. That was the last time she ever gave up chocolate for Lent.
Are Catholics the only ones who give things up for Lent, or do members of other Christian sects do so as well?
@Paul Braterman
You made me learn about the Filioque today – thanks!
@Darwin Harmless
I haven’t found yet a comment of yours that’s not worth reading… Talking about irrelevant issues within religion, how about Mary’s virginity? Apparently, it’s extremely important for Christians (at least it is for Catholics), but I honestly don’t see how its absence would affect the Christian ideology at all. Maybe the Filioque is even less important.
Paul B – I think you had most of us rushing to Wikipedia to learn something new today. I’m not sure whether to thank you or not.
JoJo – nice one, made me laugh out loud! Once I saw it 😉 (Sex raising its ugly head again, eh)
DH – in other news, the count of the number of angels on a pinhead is still contested, and someone has claimed it should be done by electoral college.
God, I love this place… thanks everyone and especially author, and Nasser
And Nasser
Both Paul Braterman’s “Filioque” and Friendly Extremist’s “Mary’s virginity” help me to understand the self-inflicted nature of (far too) many persons who just WANT, SEARCH to be happy sustaining stupid controversies at gunpoint. Sometimes, the world turns out to be stranger than one thought already!
.-
For Lent, I’ve decided to give up not giving up anything, but to enjoy everything to the absolute fullest!
Let me add my voice to the “filioque” thank yous. I was raised a Catholic and never heard the term or the controversy. Of course, international politics and intrigue are never too far from religious doctrine. In the account at the attached, it notes (regarding the reconciliation of eastern and western christianity) “Unfortunately, the union did not last. In the 1450s (just decades before the Protestant Reformation), the Eastern Orthodox left the Church again under pressure from the Muslims, who had just conquered them and who insisted they renounce their union with the Western Church (lest Western Christians come to their aid militarily).” Of course those were the good ole days when it was just Christians and Muslims. Now, you’ve got dozens of strains fighting it out, just from those two religions alone, not to mention the others. https://www.catholic.com/tract/filioque
Friendly Extremist, there are a couple of possibilities as to why Mary’s virginity is deemed so vital. Had she been sexually active then the paternity of Jesus would be in serious doubt. Being a virgin meant that the brat had to have been supernaturally conceived (not that an unmarried teenage girl would lie about her virginity in such liberal times, eh?). This is what passes as evidence for J.C’s divinity to the razor-sharp minds of the believers!
Then again, with God being all Alpha and what-not, maybe she had to be pure so that the faithful didn’t have to think that he would even consider used-goods. Or possibly it’s just that as an unwed teenager, being non-virgin would make her a slutty-slut-slut, and there’s no way that the baby Jesus meek and mild would be born to a slutty-slut-slut! Anyway, it’s hard giving birth to the Messiah when you’ve been beaten or stoned to death for being a slutty-slut-slut and disgracing your family / rabbi / village.
Regarding the virginity of Mary, the original term applied to her (I can’t recall whether it was in Greek, Aramaic, or early Hebrew) actually translated to a woman of childbearing age who had not yet born children. In medical-ese, this is called nulliparous. The virginity part was merely assumed and then tagged on, later. (Apologies for lack of reference link, but I’m sure, as with fillioque, someone will find a good one.)
Well Alexis. Good luck on giving up mass. There are an endless list of lifestyle/reality shows helping people do exactly that. If you succeed giving up mass you will singularly be doing the televiewing public a great service but thereby destroying a whole genre of mindless airtime for the masses. Its a bugger that may cause social conflict (you really need to consider the wider part of society before you defy them and science). The masses watch endless hours of others giving up mass and you will prove it can be done without effort. Aaaggghhhh, my mind is doing cartwheels and in the background intelligent society is saying “huzzah” and the mindless are wondering what they will watch and the church is considering the weighty matter of what to do on Sunday and my finger hurts typing his. May your higher entity go with you 😉
I should give up selfishness for lent. So, hey Jojo, want me to give you a hand? ^_^
Son of Glenner – I find it hilarious that everyone is freaking out over a guy who killed 5 people outside of parliament when inside there’s a bunch of folks dismantling the NHS and endangering the lives of thousands. Same in the US, when the GOP is on the one hand scaremongering because of ISIS and on the other hand trying to pass a health plan that is estimated by their own staticians to probably kill 70.000 citizens within the next couple of years.
Firefox-Nice onel, you certainly saw me coming, didn’t you…?
Gaaaaghhhh!!!!! Going to hell……..
No worries, mate. Admittedly, at first I gulped, but your “joke” left no bad aftertaste. I’m sure nothing soiled your lent vow regarding bawdy innuendos. You’ve come away with a clean vest. ^_^
Alexis, giving up mass is a weighty problem and would completely bugger up Einstein’s famous equation.
JoJo walked into the C&B and asked for a double entendre, so FreeFox gave him one.
Rebecca, nooooo, dark side that leads to.
AoS:
would completely bugger up Einstein’s famous equation
No, it would not. But it would be completely unexpected new technology (currently only to be found in some SF) AND it would be quite an explosion! In the average nucluar detonation typically only a tiny fraction of a gram is converted, so the total conversion of ONLY ONE adult person would surely bring on Nuclear Winter, if nothing much more serious….
Michael: “I’ve given up piracy on the high seas for Lent. Those who venture on the low seas are still fair game.”
So your piracy is confined to the Dead Sea & the Caspian?
Free Fox: An interesting and thought-provoking observation.
At the moment I am remembering the wonderous two years I spent being teetotal, two of the worst, most awkward and boring years ever. All things in moderation especially moderation.
@wo cents’ worth
Christians of all denominations that I know of give up things for Lent.
My mother (variously Episcopalian and Presbyterian Church of Scotland) gave up chocolate one year and alcohol another and so on… But she never started eating/drinking/etc again after Lent was over.
Now just about the only thing left in her life that she does for pleasure and could therefore meaningfully give up for Lent is, rather ironically, Christianity.
On giving up mass:
If it is not done all at once, but just slowly to fit the need:
Year 2013 worldwide consuption is estimated 3.89 × 10^20 joules (wikipedia).
Using E=mc^2 with m=3*10^8, we need about 4000 g, or 4 KG ; per year.
An 80 KG mature human can so supply ALL energy used WOLDWIDE for 20 years!
So decently giving up mass turns out to be somewhat time-consuming.
Forgot to mention: every calculation in SI units.
Dr John: “every calculation in SI units.” But not standard abbreviations!
Giving something up for a religion, or religious ritual, is one of the many reasons I turned my back to Catholicism.
I prefer the concept that one should want to give up a vice or aspect of their lives that they no longer wish to indulge or experience, simply because that is their choice and they feel their life will be better without it.
They don’t need some stringent doctrine to tell them what free will could say just as easily.
To quote my favorite passage from the bible,
dr John, when you say ‘woldwide’, are you thinking specifically of the limestone hills of the Cotswolds, Yorkshire, and Lincolnshire?
AoS:
I used “worldwide” in the sense of the wiki article: the sum of energy “generated” all over the globe in the commercial sense, ie “converted into a usable form” in scientific sense.
It includes all energy “generated” from fossil, nuclear, hydro, wind, solar and bio sources.
dr John, check how you spelled ‘worldwide’ in your original comment and you’ll realise that I knew what you meant, I was being sarcastic.
AoS:
I see.
Your jibe did not ring a bell in my non-native English, and I just didn’t get it…..
I think I just had one of them epiphany things. According to dissonance theory, a person will be much more reluctant to accept evidence against a belief if they have made an investment in that belief. For example, it’s the guy who sold all his possessions in anticipation of the rapture who is more willing to accept the guru’s explanation for why the rapture didn’t happen on schedule. It’s the young Mormon who has done his mission and become an elder who is much less likely to give up his belief in Mormonism. It’s the Jehovah’s Witness who has endured abuse knocking on doors who is more likely to cling to their beliefs.
With this in mind, giving up something for lent makes perfect sense. It’s an investment in the belief system, which makes it harder to examine the belief system critically.
DH,
Absolutely agree. Every person is bound to have an adamant latching onto an ideal or belief of some sort in their lives, and the easily-led religious are glowing examples of this.
[Must resist pun about light and blindness].
What … no one is giving up Lent for Lent? Ah, well…! [chuckle!]