Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought the “sacrifice” was God’s, not Jesus’. Sure, Jesus was the one who died etc., but he was God’s son, as the theology goes, and thus God’s loss. No? But don’t ask me to explain whose sacrifice it is if God and Jesus (and the HG) are one in the trinity.
Dick, I believe the technical theological answer is: It’s a Mystery. You do not ask questions about Mysteries. Ten Hail Marys. 😉 (See the web link for a bit more.)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it wasn’t just Jesus who got crucified. Crucifixion was quite a popular method of execution back in those days. So what makes Jesus so special in terms of suffering?
“Always look on the bright side of death,” is one of my favourite Monty Python lines ever.
jasonbiggskills, you’re quite right; after the Jewish rebellion against the Romans the area around Jerusalem was deforested to provide crosses and then they had to re-use them again and again at short notice. I believe that the same thing had already happened after the Spartacus rebellion.
My problem with this alleged sacrifice has always been ‘What’s the point’. To me the reason that wrongdoing is wrong is down to the consequences. Let’s say that a child-killer finds God in prison and becomes a Christian. Due to Jesus’ death he is now OK with God and has his sins forgiven and can now go to Heaven. Does the murdered child now come back to life to be re-united with its distraught parents? Nope, everything is just as it was, so this agonising death achieved nothing apart from allowing the worst of criminals to get off scot-free for eternity.
jasonbiggskills,
Ordinarily you would be correct, except that the cartoon is about Jesus and Mo, not about everybody else who was crucified. Similar claims are NOT made about them.
I’d do it for an eternity of anything I choose at any time, which is what I would call heaven. Just think, no fundamentalists, ergo, no conservatives–hmm, well, they do provide a hell of a lot of humor. Let’s just say I can have fundis, but without political power.
“Jesus and Mo will return when the holy days are done.”
And here I thought their claim was, ‘When Jesus and Mo return, the Holy Days will be done, for all eternity.’ Actually, it seems more reasonable to believe it will be an eternity before they return.
–
Being omniscient, God knew that his creations were not perfect and would ‘sin’, such that He would have to become His own son and allow Himself to be tortured and killed for a little while. Seems an awful lot of trouble to go to when, given His omnipotence, He could have done it right the first time.
Mysterious ways, indeed.
–
The problem with eternity is that there are only a finite number of pleasant things you can do to occupy yourself. Even switching through a large number of distractions becomes boring after repeating each one an infinite number of times.
Stonyground, I may be misremembering but I think I learnt at my convent school, many years ago, that killing was a mortal sin and as such could not be forgiven. Does that help at all? Did you want help to understand Christianity or any other religion? Maybe it helps to clarify why one feels that one should not have been taught that learning to believe the impossible is ok when its religion but one must grow out of it when its just Santa Claus.
Choice of favorite punch line:
1. Hey Mary, I can see your house from here
2. Yo Jesus, could you cross your legs? We’re running out of nails
3. So then I said “So what are you going to do, nail me to a cross?
4. So then I said to the priest “Nail any good altar boys lately?
5. They’re going to do it as a practical? What happened to the CGI?
6. All things considered, I’d rather be in Cleveland.
Maggs, I think the one truly unforgivable sin in any religion is doubt. Child-killers and Nazis can enjoy an eternity with the Jeebus if they’re sorry enough, but someone who can’t smother intelligent questions under a pile of idiot faith is damned.
Steady on Author, you’re crossing a line there. Me and my sky blue brethren will descend from Middle Eastlands and a furious footie jihad will be waged against you!
Actually, on second thoughts, maybe we do enjoy suffering, can’t be much other explanation
‘Sup guys, off topic but I have a request. I’m in a fairly heated e-mail exchange over the usefulness of the bible for historical information. So far my opponent has been failing to provide backup for claims like “Everything mentioned in the bible and found by archaeology has proven to be exactly where and as the bible says it should be.” but I’d like to show some specific examples of historical claims made by the bible that remain unsupported by archeological evidence where we might expect to have found some.
I seem to remember that there isn’t even any evidence that there was a jewish slave class in egypt or any support for the wandering the desert story but I wouldn’t like to say this if I’m mis-remembering things.
This site (http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch.html) was provided to me by someone over at Pharyngula. If anyone else finds themselves arguing biblical history they may find it extremely useful.
For our American friends.
Manchester Utd are a soccer team from Manchester, England who often start the season with a few losses and stutter a little in form. Crucially they almost always finish strongly and end up winning the competition. They have a lot of trophies in their cabinet.
Manchester City are a soccer team from Manchester, England who often start the season well and with a sense of growing optimism that this year is going to be theirs. Crucially, around Christmas time their light begins to fade and they always finish lower in the soccer league than they’d hoped. They have a lot of cobwebs and lost hope in their trophy cabinet.
Hartlepool are another soccer team. They are always rubbish. It’s because Jesus hates them.
pikeamus : Try the noah’s ark on Mt. Ararat. Johnny, I’ve got a friend that just can’t get that heaven/eternity would be a boring frickin’ thing. I have explained the part about eventually you would have done everything then what? Gotta love the tenacity of these xtians!!!!!!
It’s only reasonable to expect that if there is an eternity in a heaven, then it must come included with some variant of alzheimers; each day one would wake up and think “Yay! I’m in heaven, what’s this round thing over my head, wow it’s so bright up here”. A sort of groundhog day but in reverse.
To be fair to Jesus, Cruxifiction has to be one of the more painful ways to go, I think Mo is being a little harsh.
Ketil is a Utd Fan. Obviously not actually from Manchester then!
And Good Nazis don’t have to be sorry- Hitler said he was doing it for Jesus. Any evangelical will tell you, its not how good you are, its whether you are coming to God through Jesus. Hitler was, ergo he gets in to Heaven.
Ok, not quite as relevant as the bus slogan business, but still of interest to Jesmoers I think. http://jamesholden.net/billboard/
Time to rat on your bomb-making islamist neighbours!
“The problem with eternity is that there are only a finite number of pleasant things you can do to occupy yourself. Even switching through a large number of distractions becomes boring after repeating each one an infinite number of times.” Yeah, but eventually you learn to become a good person and the girl falls in love with you and you can get on with your life.
Or, am I confusing things a bit?
I know guys, btw, who would probably say that as long as people keep having daughters, heaven could never get boring. Except that guys are probably all Eunichs in heaven. (Or Unix, but with the crappy job of Godding JC & co have done, they’re probably Windows users.)
One of the stories by Jorge Luis Borges was supposed to be about how boring eternity would be, assuming that one has to endure thru all of it. Anybody know which of Borges’ stories that was supposed to be?
I think its “A History of Eternity” in his non-fictions collection.
Sartre memorably described hell as “Eternity spent with one’s friends”.
Lister (Red Dwarf) added “Yeah- but all his mates were french.”
Daoloth,
Thanks. I found it and have put it on my nightstand to read later tonight. It looks very promising. I had been looking among the Collected Fictions.
Personally I can’t think that being surrounded by willing women with big arses would ever get boring. If it did, as long as I had a collection of English motorbikes with three cylinder engines to take out on deserted twisty roads I think I would be ok.
@Dick M As these characters are a figment of someones imagination what difference does it make? You might just as well ask if the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the same as the Holy Ravioli.
pikeamus, one of the biggest myths of the Bible is Noah’s flood story. It is really a copy of a Sumerian Myth. Look up Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh Epics. Utnapishtim was the Sumerian “Noah.” Some of the Biblical text reads almost verbatim to the Sumerian myth.
Also, there is no evidence to support the idea of a global flood, and anthropologists show an unbroken history of other civilizations before and after the many dates given for the “flood.”
One thing I would love to hear thumpers explain, is where did the various races originate? Some fundis I’ve talked with claim blacks were turned black because of Noah’s cursing his grandson (for what his son did). Funny how fundamentalist religion is often attached to a xenophobic/racist mentality, and an obsession with guns.
pikeamus, one of the most outstanding myths of the Bible is Noah’s flood story. It is really a copy of a Sumerian Myth. Look up Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh Epics. Utnapishtim was the Sumerian “Noah.” Some of the Biblical text reads almost verbatim to the Sumerian myth.
Also, there is no evidence to support the idea of a global flood, and anthropologists show an unbroken history of other civilizations before and after the many dates given for the “flood.”
One thing I would love to hear thumpers explain, is where did the various races originate? Some fundis I’ve talked with claim blacks were turned black because of Noah’s cursing his grandson (for what his son did). Funny how fundamentalist religion is often attached to a xenophobic/racist mentality, and an obsession with guns.
Maggs — your definition of mortal sin is mistaken — this is simply : a sin that, unless confessed and absolved, condemns a person’s soul to Hell after death. These sins are considered “mortal” because they constitute a rupture in a person’s link to God’s saving grace: the person’s soul becomes “dead”, not merely weakened.
The only unforgiveable sin according to the Bible is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, though no one seems to know exactly what this consists of.
Re. the theology about Jesus’sacrifice – Jesus of Nazareth is said to have been (and still is) the physical incarnation of the second person of the Trinity, God the Son. Not just “God’s son” but the “son” bit of a three-part God. He is said to have existed from all eternity until deciding to incarnate in Jesus. Thus his sacrfice is supposedly something God did to himself basically. And I agree with the author, if he knew he was going to have eternal bliss it was not such a big deal at the end of the day…
3 hours on a cross, 2 days dead in a cave but an eternity being crap at clapping (a real bummer!). I would think twice about that before taking the job.
Everyone seems to be missing the point slightly about my post stating that the sacrifice of Jesus was pointless. The murder was only an example, the point was that a bad deed is a bad deed only because of the consequences of that deed. The person who commited the bad deed supposedly gains access to God’s forgivness due to the crucifixion but the consequences of that deed remain unchanged. These conequence are the reason, the only reason, that the deed is considered bad, so the sacrifice is pointless.
I hate it when I have to wait for my next installment of the truth as seen from the eyes of our “Author”. Check the link above and read the last sentence. These guys are hilarious……Is there a spitting contest?????
I saw Elvis last night at a pool hall in Minneapolis. He was with a guy whom I suspect was the author. I suspect he was the author because he kept shouting “Jesus!” and “Holy Moley!”. Upon reflection, however, this may have been slim evidence, based on mere preference on my part.
Author, like God herself, is undoubtedly female. BTW its amazing how many religious types you can rouse to apoplectic fury by referring to God as “she” and then asking about their knowledge of Gods genitals when they protest.
I thought I had posted this but seem to have forgotten to press the GO button.
Your argument with a bibleist/creationist reminds me of an old quote.
“If you argue with an idiot the best result you can possibly hope for is that you win an argument against an idiot”.
Daoloth – I actually have heavenly genitals which I would be happy to share with you (having made the assumption that you are of the femaleist persuasion).
Another way of bringing a religionist to incandescent fury is just to laugh at them and say “Good grief – I thought that mumbo jumbo died out in the Middle Ages”.
Thanks for the advice but the arguement has moved to a public forum so I feel obliged to carry on just so that those that are uninformed and uninclined to do the research for themselves do not take what the idiot has been saying to be true. I think rather a lot of people end up believing the claims made by the religious simply because they don’t see people try and dispute them.
I recently got into an arguement/discussion about religious beliefs with a xtian friend of mine. He kept saying the bible says this and and your taking the bible out of contect and you don’t understand what god meant by that and on and on. Until I fianlly got him to see that he could not argue with me from a position based soully on the his belief. He had a moment of understanding then said you’re right but I still believe in god/bible….gasp, sigh, shrug. At least I still have my “correct” point of view….
When they say that it’s in the bible. Ask them “Which bible?”
King James; Revised King James; Douai Rheimes; International; New International; New Revised International; New American; New Revised American; etc, etc, etc
This will slow the down.
haha kiyaroru so now we can paraphrase that old quote…
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just read one fewer bible than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other bibles, you will understand why I dismiss yours”
Johnothan T. Rock-Splitter writes: “Another way of bringing a religionist to incandescent fury is just to laugh at them and say “Good grief – I thought that mumbo jumbo died out in the Middle Agesâ€.”
April 21 and still no new strip. I hope the resurrection worked out.
kiyaroru: I’ve been reading the Douai Rheimes Bible with a voice synthesiser (enabling something more constructive to be done at the same time). It sounds vaguely amusing. Have got to the end of Deuteronomy, my goodness there are hundreds more pages to go. (You can get the text from Project Gutenberg, http://www.gutenberg.org).
What right do you’s have critising God,Jesus and the Holy spirit(trinity).If you don’t no how the resurrection of the Lord was said in the Gospel of the Lord then what right do you have making up stupid jokes like this. I think you people need to grow up and even if you are a religious person who thinks this joke is awesome and lyk sooo funny then you need to grow up. Thats whats so wrong about the world today is that there are those who make fun of the whole cruciffiction sort of thing anf that he died on the cross and rised again in three days. In John 14: 6 it clearly says: Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me. He died for us to make it easy for us to have a closer relationship with his father and he made a easier way for us to go to heaven if not we burn in hell were maggots eat our fleash. All im saying is that this joke is stupid because in some way it may affend some people. Im just a little kid affter all but im expressing myself and saying what i want to say after all this is a website that you can say what you want to say well i think im finish now.
Jane&imChristian. although you’re only a child you will grow up and hopefully you’ll be a little less ‘mature’. Life’s fun and it doesn’t need to be dictated by a fairy story. I’m sure you can decide whether you are a good person or not. Go and discover it for yourself and enjoy it. Life’s not all about God and killing people on crosses 🙂
Jane: You think what is wrong with the world today is that people make fun of old stories? Really? You can’t think of some other, much more serious, things that are wrong in the world?
Anyway, did you ever stop to think about how silly the resurrection story sounds? It’s pretty hard to talk about it at all without making fun of it, unless you’re not actually willing to think about it and just parrot lines. God sends his son (who is also himself) down to earth so he can be sacrificed to himself so that he doesn’t have to punish everyone in the world eternally for something one of their ancestors did. Makes about as much sense as a David Lynch film.
You quote “In John 14: 6 it clearly says: Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me”.
I’m pretty sure that Al Pacino said almost the same thing in the movie “The Godfather”, but he had a gun so I’d have to pay more attention to it than what some guy wrote in that book of fables you quote from.
If you don’t believe me, consider what happened to “Fredo”, and he was both a son and a brother, who became a (hole filled) holy ghost.
Jane says… “What right do you’s have critising God,Jesus and the Holy spirit(trinity)” Well, I suspect that this strip is written in England, so I can’t speak for the author, but I live in the good ol’ USA and I have every right to say whatever I want. It says so, right there in that little thing they call the Constitution. Right near where is says the gov needs to stay out of the whole fairy tale business.
As for “If you don’t no how the resurrection of the Lord was said in the Gospel of the Lord then what right do you have making up stupid jokes like this.” So, are you telling me you’ve read the original, in the original language? No? So what version did you read? King James’ version that he had tailored to his needs? The Good News bible, dumbed down to take out all that confusing, conflicting stuff so no one questions it? Perhaps the Knox bible where Ronald Knox, paid to come up with a new version just before WWII, gave new meaning to formerly confusing passages? We had all three when I was growing up. I’m not sure, however, that my mother meant for me to compare them and wonder about the discrepancies.
You certainly don’t sound like a “little kid” — I’d guess more of a pre-teen. So let me ask you this: Do you believe in Zeus and Apollo and Prometheus and all those guys? If not, why not? Surely their works were every bit as impressive and wondrous as JC’s or even the god of the old testament. And, by the way, every bit as substantiated as JC’s. Did your parents ever tell you that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy were real? Do you (still) believe them? If not, why not? How is that any different?
So to get to the crux of your question, regarding the gospel and the resurrection, the New International Version describes it thusly: “But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.” (Luke 24:11-12) So even the disciples thought it was nonsense and Pete saw that the body was gone and wondered what happened. Well, let’s see, take a body, made of meat, and put it in a cave in the woods and leave it for a couple of days. What do you really think happened? Miracle or wolves? I’ll go with the explanation that doesn’t require believing in a magic man.
by the way, since we’ve no new comic yet, which of the bible’s conflicting creation stories do you believe? And, if you’re a girl (as the name Jane might suggest), are you prepared for your parents to sell you into slavery? Because the bible says they can do that. Better be on your best behaviour!
Unfortunately, I think “Jane&imChristian” is supposed to be something like “Jane&JimChristian” (maybe “Kim”), implying a partnership and thus adulthood.
I believe our transient troll may be of the “I beleevs it ‘cos mah Pa tol’ me so en i donts likes ta lern” persuasion.
Jane should spend more time in school learning how to do useful stuff (like spelling, grammar and sentence construction) rather than reading old books full of fairy stories, myths and nonsense.
If she did mean to type Jane&Kim then she deserves (according to her own sky fairy rules and regulations) to be stoned to death for blasphemy.
I just wondered if jprandi would like my email address (as well as my house number, street, town and telephone number!).
You do make a good point. Jesus’ suffering was not extraordinary, compared to the suffering that many people have gone through. Well, the suffering that is obvious from the surface, anyway. I think there’s two things that make it extraordinary.
Firstly, he chose the suffering. Volunteered for being scorned, rejected by everyone he knew, and then for death. Can’t say I’d do that for studio flat with a park view. Would have to be a Penthouse suite at least.
Secondly, from what I understand, Jesus’ spirit was also tormented for the few days before being resurrected. Again, with exact knowledge of what was going to happen, and with full power to stop at any time. My theology isn’t fantastic, so someone correct me if I’m wrong.
Anyway, I thought I’d pipe up with an alternative view for arguments sake. Nice comic. Some Christians need a little fun poked at them. It may just get rid of the stick up their butt.
My hunch is that Author is male. Regardless of gender, if the barmaid reflects his views then he could feasibly be a Man U fan. Which marks him down slightly in my estimations. But if he comes back soon all will be forgiven!
I think a better sacrifice would have been jesus going to hell for all eternity..you know, since thats how his dad wants to punish the rest of us….just let him stay there and we can go to happy land with god…the cross thing was dramatic and all but not nearly sacrificey enough
We have been missing Jesus and Mo for many days now. Hope you will pick up the good work again!
But if not, thanks for many a good laugh, not to speak of much afterthought. At least I hope your archives will remain on the net
[…] I really only meant for there to be a few, select zombie scenes. You know, Hippie Jesus gets slightly killed and comes back, complete with holes in extremeties; a few graves open up once My vacation is over – […]
Presumably in Heaven you get your boredom gland excised.
We can’t know when the “holy days” end without knowing what, if anything, is holy to the Author. If the Author is a pantheist, the “holy days” may go on forever!
Dick M: More interesting imho than who made the sacrifice — to whom was the sacrifice made?
Ketil G: You and William the Bloody Awful Poet.
Sarge084: One still prefers that fiction make sense.
Hobbes: Most of my gun-nut friends are atheists.
Hobbes: Most of my gun-nut friends are atheists.
grouchy-one: I know someone whose father was raised in a strict Christer community in rural Arizona, then took a comparative religion class at Stanford. When he heard the words “Many cultures have a resurrection myth” his faith went kablooey.
Jane&imChristian: You need to distinguish between ignorance and non-belief.
Colonel Leisure: You remind me of something that (i think) C S Lewis said: “When I became a man I put off childish things, including the fear of being thought childish.”
Uncle Roger: You need to distinguish between legal rights and moral rights. By the way, the First Amendment doesn’t actually say “the gov needs to stay out of the whole fairy tale business”; as written, it forbids FedGov to establish or disestablish any churches – the last state churches weren’t disestablished until a generation later. — Be fair, wolves would likely leave some bones behind.
pzdummy: Do you happen to know what drugs (other than faith) this “Nostradamus” favors?
Jesus wasn’t just crucified. Jesus inherited God’s heart, which is the greatest sacrifice any human can make. To inherit God’s heart is to love as God loves and feel as God feels. God, as the creator and master of the universe, is everywhere, so whenever we feel pain(physical or emotional), He feels is just as keenly. On the other hand, God is our parent, so when we feel pain he not only feels is directly as if He was feeling it Himself, but He feels it indirectly as a parent would. When Jesus saw all the faces and actions of all the sinners of all the sinners(all human beings) who ever existed, he felt their pain both as they would themselves and as God does as our parent watching give and receive so much suffering.
So my belief is that while Jesus’ physical suffering at his crucification was horrific, it wasn’t much worse than others before and after them. You know, they still do it today some places, such as Cameroon on the west coast of Africa. His real sacrifice was to inherit God’s heart and feel the same pain and sorrow that God feels every moment a single human suffers.
A bit more than three hours, I think. More like 12 surely? The point still stands regardless of the duration, though. Wasn’t Jesus supposed to have experienced super-omni-sin-based suffering, though? The other counter to it is the notion of free will. People have the power to stop suffering and other evil, but don’t. If God just stepped in and cleared up the mess, people wouldn’t have free will. That then begs the question of why it’s important (and if it exists and in what sense).
I’m a religious person, and I wonder if there are more “believers” who like to read this strip. I personally find those strips clever, most of the time, and sometimes funny. It makes a good analizis about people’s beliefs, and how they think their beliefs are so true and so simple, just because they believe on them. However, I dislike how it sometimes, rarelly, the author is not trying to show the inherent contractions of a religious system, or to analise them… sometimes the author only try to offend the religious figures, and I don’t see the point of it… I find it useless, silly, and yes, disrespectful without a good reason. I’m not talkin of this strip in particular… but about others, like the one of the elevator and the Holy Spirit, the one of the seagul or the one of the sperm… what was the point of them, anyway? they make an interesting remark on the religious beliefs of christians or muslims? I don’t think so, and I think the author could avoid such material, without loosing its touch and popularity. It’s not neccesary to be so rednecky.
“If God just stepped in and cleared up the mess, people wouldn’t have free will. That then begs the question of why it’s important (and if it exists and in what sense).”
Free will exists indeed, in the sense that we can think whatever we want and do anything we want within the bounds of the laws that govern the physical universe (gravity etc.) it is so inmportant because without free will, the meaning of love is eliminated.
Pets “love” their humans only because their instict tells them that if they don’t they won’t get the food, water, warmth, and protection that they need. This isn’t true Love, this is obedience and loyalty based only on necessity.
As humans, we have free will and the intelligence of mind to be able to live independently of God if we so choose. How precious is it then when we do indeed choose to live our lives striving to be with God even though we don’t really have to? It is infinitely precious. It’s like the joy a parent would feel if their children willingly come and take care of them when they’re old. As adults, human’s don’t need their parents to survive anymore so there’s no real logical reason to help their parents as they get old. However, if we love our parents we we help them out anyway. This should give the parents the greatest joy as long as the children have not legal obligation or natural reason of necessity to serve them.
The god-christ tale gets more unbelievable, convoluted, and bogged down with confusing details in the retelling. “Inhereits god’s heart?” wow, that wasn’t even in the original, and that things’s a messed up story to begin with.
Reminds me of the oral tradition of (missing accents) The Tain, an irish Celtic tale I took in medieval lit class. The storyline had so many threads in the various circulating versions, that the editors of the modern version of the original saga had to piece ’em together by picking and choosing.
Can’t imagine how much wrangling it must have taken to get all the various copies (which needed to be destroyed) of various books that were voted in as canon (word of god can be vetoed by committee, it seems!), and translated from various ancient languages (before punctuation was invented! God’s law might be missing a comma or semicolon that could change the whole meaning!), and then once that was ironed out, trying to ram the doctrine into people’s heads overriding their free and critical thinking capacities, usually under threat of some kind of punishment or coercion–> this was probably the easier part.
@pikeamus: a favourite one I’ve heard is that if future archeologists uncover remnants of the City of Manhattan, does that prove the Spiderman story is real. I hope no fans of this story start crying if I mock the writing or the logic of the plot.
Jesus & Mo (the characters) are absurd, blinkered, and oddly very sweet. J&M (the cartoon) is brilliant: sharp, delicious, irresistible. Salman Rushdie
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In a world defined by outrage and offence and liberal spinelessness, Jesus and Mo is a treasure, whose value we should never fail to recognize. Read them. Laugh. And think. Kenan Malik
The brilliant, celebrated, freaking hilarious atheist comic strip ... Greta Christina
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J & Mo is the funniest and most consistently thought-provoking cartoon strip on the Net. In a saner world, it would run in a major newspaper. Nelson Jones, Heresy Corner
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Wittily captures much of the absurdity of religious apologetics. Mano Singham
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Often hilarious, frequently wry, these cartoons do what all the best cartoons do: they tell the truth through humour. Terry Sanderson, NSS President
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includes the freedom to mock any person, any thing, any activity, and
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January 8, 2020
Perhaps I am mistaken, but I thought the “sacrifice” was God’s, not Jesus’. Sure, Jesus was the one who died etc., but he was God’s son, as the theology goes, and thus God’s loss. No? But don’t ask me to explain whose sacrifice it is if God and Jesus (and the HG) are one in the trinity.
Dick, I believe the technical theological answer is: It’s a Mystery. You do not ask questions about Mysteries. Ten Hail Marys. 😉 (See the web link for a bit more.)
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it wasn’t just Jesus who got crucified. Crucifixion was quite a popular method of execution back in those days. So what makes Jesus so special in terms of suffering?
“Always look on the bright side of death,” is one of my favourite Monty Python lines ever.
Didn’t got the Season Ticket at Manchester city pun.
jasonbiggskills, you’re quite right; after the Jewish rebellion against the Romans the area around Jerusalem was deforested to provide crosses and then they had to re-use them again and again at short notice. I believe that the same thing had already happened after the Spartacus rebellion.
My problem with this alleged sacrifice has always been ‘What’s the point’. To me the reason that wrongdoing is wrong is down to the consequences. Let’s say that a child-killer finds God in prison and becomes a Christian. Due to Jesus’ death he is now OK with God and has his sins forgiven and can now go to Heaven. Does the murdered child now come back to life to be re-united with its distraught parents? Nope, everything is just as it was, so this agonising death achieved nothing apart from allowing the worst of criminals to get off scot-free for eternity.
Congratulations, you just found out what purpose religion serves, and at the same time whom probably imagined it…
At least when Elvis died for my sins, he stayed dead.
jasonbiggskills,
Ordinarily you would be correct, except that the cartoon is about Jesus and Mo, not about everybody else who was crucified. Similar claims are NOT made about them.
I’d do it for an eternity of anything I choose at any time, which is what I would call heaven. Just think, no fundamentalists, ergo, no conservatives–hmm, well, they do provide a hell of a lot of humor. Let’s just say I can have fundis, but without political power.
“Jesus and Mo will return when the holy days are done.”
And here I thought their claim was, ‘When Jesus and Mo return, the Holy Days will be done, for all eternity.’ Actually, it seems more reasonable to believe it will be an eternity before they return.
–
Being omniscient, God knew that his creations were not perfect and would ‘sin’, such that He would have to become His own son and allow Himself to be tortured and killed for a little while. Seems an awful lot of trouble to go to when, given His omnipotence, He could have done it right the first time.
Mysterious ways, indeed.
–
The problem with eternity is that there are only a finite number of pleasant things you can do to occupy yourself. Even switching through a large number of distractions becomes boring after repeating each one an infinite number of times.
Stonyground, I may be misremembering but I think I learnt at my convent school, many years ago, that killing was a mortal sin and as such could not be forgiven. Does that help at all? Did you want help to understand Christianity or any other religion? Maybe it helps to clarify why one feels that one should not have been taught that learning to believe the impossible is ok when its religion but one must grow out of it when its just Santa Claus.
Choice of favorite punch line:
1. Hey Mary, I can see your house from here
2. Yo Jesus, could you cross your legs? We’re running out of nails
3. So then I said “So what are you going to do, nail me to a cross?
4. So then I said to the priest “Nail any good altar boys lately?
5. They’re going to do it as a practical? What happened to the CGI?
6. All things considered, I’d rather be in Cleveland.
The barmaid wants to be whipped? Now, that is hot!
“Greater love hath no man”, obvously He wasn’t talking about Himself.
Maggs, I think the one truly unforgivable sin in any religion is doubt. Child-killers and Nazis can enjoy an eternity with the Jeebus if they’re sorry enough, but someone who can’t smother intelligent questions under a pile of idiot faith is damned.
And where’s my bloody avatar got to?
Steady on Author, you’re crossing a line there. Me and my sky blue brethren will descend from Middle Eastlands and a furious footie jihad will be waged against you!
Actually, on second thoughts, maybe we do enjoy suffering, can’t be much other explanation
‘Sup guys, off topic but I have a request. I’m in a fairly heated e-mail exchange over the usefulness of the bible for historical information. So far my opponent has been failing to provide backup for claims like “Everything mentioned in the bible and found by archaeology has proven to be exactly where and as the bible says it should be.” but I’d like to show some specific examples of historical claims made by the bible that remain unsupported by archeological evidence where we might expect to have found some.
I seem to remember that there isn’t even any evidence that there was a jewish slave class in egypt or any support for the wandering the desert story but I wouldn’t like to say this if I’m mis-remembering things.
“Didn’t got the Season Ticket at Manchester city…”
Me neither…but I’m thinking maybe it has to do with a soccer team?
Chiaroscuro , Diane G:
Yes, Manchester City is a soccer team. They are rather less well known than the city’s other soccer team, Manchester United.
This site (http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch.html) was provided to me by someone over at Pharyngula. If anyone else finds themselves arguing biblical history they may find it extremely useful.
For our American friends.
Manchester Utd are a soccer team from Manchester, England who often start the season with a few losses and stutter a little in form. Crucially they almost always finish strongly and end up winning the competition. They have a lot of trophies in their cabinet.
Manchester City are a soccer team from Manchester, England who often start the season well and with a sense of growing optimism that this year is going to be theirs. Crucially, around Christmas time their light begins to fade and they always finish lower in the soccer league than they’d hoped. They have a lot of cobwebs and lost hope in their trophy cabinet.
Hartlepool are another soccer team. They are always rubbish. It’s because Jesus hates them.
pikeamus : Try the noah’s ark on Mt. Ararat. Johnny, I’ve got a friend that just can’t get that heaven/eternity would be a boring frickin’ thing. I have explained the part about eventually you would have done everything then what? Gotta love the tenacity of these xtians!!!!!!
hmmm Mo is manchester city football fan?
I’m Manchester United fan 🙂 Manchester United is the best 🙂
It’s only reasonable to expect that if there is an eternity in a heaven, then it must come included with some variant of alzheimers; each day one would wake up and think “Yay! I’m in heaven, what’s this round thing over my head, wow it’s so bright up here”. A sort of groundhog day but in reverse.
To be fair to Jesus, Cruxifiction has to be one of the more painful ways to go, I think Mo is being a little harsh.
Ketil is a Utd Fan. Obviously not actually from Manchester then!
And Good Nazis don’t have to be sorry- Hitler said he was doing it for Jesus. Any evangelical will tell you, its not how good you are, its whether you are coming to God through Jesus. Hitler was, ergo he gets in to Heaven.
Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged found a solution to the problem of eternal boredom.
Ok, not quite as relevant as the bus slogan business, but still of interest to Jesmoers I think. http://jamesholden.net/billboard/
Time to rat on your bomb-making islamist neighbours!
Sayeth the Author:
“Jesus and Mo will return when the holy days are done.”
Just one reporters opinion, but I’m sure the holy days are so done.
Dead and buried as it were, even allowing for a re-birth or two.
I’m just saying…
Pikeamus: Check this book out:
It Ain’t Necessarily So (Matthew Burgis).
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=1007992646&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3Dit%2Baint%2Bnecessarily%2Bso%26x%3D52%26y%3D13
Thanks MrGronk, I shall have to pick that one up.
There is something so satisfying about being right and having the evidence to prove it.
Last Hussar
Ketil is a Utd Fan. Obviously not actually from Manchester then!
Well said that man!
“The problem with eternity is that there are only a finite number of pleasant things you can do to occupy yourself. Even switching through a large number of distractions becomes boring after repeating each one an infinite number of times.” Yeah, but eventually you learn to become a good person and the girl falls in love with you and you can get on with your life.
Or, am I confusing things a bit?
I know guys, btw, who would probably say that as long as people keep having daughters, heaven could never get boring. Except that guys are probably all Eunichs in heaven. (Or Unix, but with the crappy job of Godding JC & co have done, they’re probably Windows users.)
One of the stories by Jorge Luis Borges was supposed to be about how boring eternity would be, assuming that one has to endure thru all of it. Anybody know which of Borges’ stories that was supposed to be?
I think its “A History of Eternity” in his non-fictions collection.
Sartre memorably described hell as “Eternity spent with one’s friends”.
Lister (Red Dwarf) added “Yeah- but all his mates were french.”
Daoloth,
Thanks. I found it and have put it on my nightstand to read later tonight. It looks very promising. I had been looking among the Collected Fictions.
Personally I can’t think that being surrounded by willing women with big arses would ever get boring. If it did, as long as I had a collection of English motorbikes with three cylinder engines to take out on deserted twisty roads I think I would be ok.
@Dick M As these characters are a figment of someones imagination what difference does it make? You might just as well ask if the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the same as the Holy Ravioli.
Hey, I hear some middle-eastern royal family have just bought Manchester City FC. Do you think its because they know Mo’s a fan?
Sarge084,
Don’t assume that a request for information means that I have bought into some particular theory or other.
pikeamus, one of the biggest myths of the Bible is Noah’s flood story. It is really a copy of a Sumerian Myth. Look up Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh Epics. Utnapishtim was the Sumerian “Noah.” Some of the Biblical text reads almost verbatim to the Sumerian myth.
Also, there is no evidence to support the idea of a global flood, and anthropologists show an unbroken history of other civilizations before and after the many dates given for the “flood.”
One thing I would love to hear thumpers explain, is where did the various races originate? Some fundis I’ve talked with claim blacks were turned black because of Noah’s cursing his grandson (for what his son did). Funny how fundamentalist religion is often attached to a xenophobic/racist mentality, and an obsession with guns.
pikeamus, one of the most outstanding myths of the Bible is Noah’s flood story. It is really a copy of a Sumerian Myth. Look up Utnapishtim in the Gilgamesh Epics. Utnapishtim was the Sumerian “Noah.” Some of the Biblical text reads almost verbatim to the Sumerian myth.
Also, there is no evidence to support the idea of a global flood, and anthropologists show an unbroken history of other civilizations before and after the many dates given for the “flood.”
One thing I would love to hear thumpers explain, is where did the various races originate? Some fundis I’ve talked with claim blacks were turned black because of Noah’s cursing his grandson (for what his son did). Funny how fundamentalist religion is often attached to a xenophobic/racist mentality, and an obsession with guns.
Oops. Didn’t see a way to delete the second posting. The first posting didn’t show up the first try, but both showed up on second try.
Maggs — your definition of mortal sin is mistaken — this is simply : a sin that, unless confessed and absolved, condemns a person’s soul to Hell after death. These sins are considered “mortal” because they constitute a rupture in a person’s link to God’s saving grace: the person’s soul becomes “dead”, not merely weakened.
The only unforgiveable sin according to the Bible is blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, though no one seems to know exactly what this consists of.
Re. the theology about Jesus’sacrifice – Jesus of Nazareth is said to have been (and still is) the physical incarnation of the second person of the Trinity, God the Son. Not just “God’s son” but the “son” bit of a three-part God. He is said to have existed from all eternity until deciding to incarnate in Jesus. Thus his sacrfice is supposedly something God did to himself basically. And I agree with the author, if he knew he was going to have eternal bliss it was not such a big deal at the end of the day…
3 hours on a cross, 2 days dead in a cave but an eternity being crap at clapping (a real bummer!). I would think twice about that before taking the job.
Anyway, good job author, happy Easter.
Hobbes,
It seems that the internet, much like jebus, works in mysterious ways.
Everyone seems to be missing the point slightly about my post stating that the sacrifice of Jesus was pointless. The murder was only an example, the point was that a bad deed is a bad deed only because of the consequences of that deed. The person who commited the bad deed supposedly gains access to God’s forgivness due to the crucifixion but the consequences of that deed remain unchanged. These conequence are the reason, the only reason, that the deed is considered bad, so the sacrifice is pointless.
I hate it when I have to wait for my next installment of the truth as seen from the eyes of our “Author”. Check the link above and read the last sentence. These guys are hilarious……Is there a spitting contest?????
Please tell me Author didn’t go and celebrate Easter after all that we’ve been through together!
Will the holy days ever be done? I want daily J&M damnit!
Take it easy, guys, this year’s Easter is yet to come – orthodox one, but still…
I saw Elvis last night at a pool hall in Minneapolis. He was with a guy whom I suspect was the author. I suspect he was the author because he kept shouting “Jesus!” and “Holy Moley!”. Upon reflection, however, this may have been slim evidence, based on mere preference on my part.
I always considered Author to be female. The counterpoint arguments always come from behind the “camera” making Barmaid Author’s alter-ego.
I’ve never seen any gender reference on the website, which I imagine is deliberate, so I could be wrong. I don’t think I am, though. 🙂
Author, like God herself, is undoubtedly female. BTW its amazing how many religious types you can rouse to apoplectic fury by referring to God as “she” and then asking about their knowledge of Gods genitals when they protest.
Pikeamus
I thought I had posted this but seem to have forgotten to press the GO button.
Your argument with a bibleist/creationist reminds me of an old quote.
“If you argue with an idiot the best result you can possibly hope for is that you win an argument against an idiot”.
Daoloth – I actually have heavenly genitals which I would be happy to share with you (having made the assumption that you are of the femaleist persuasion).
Another way of bringing a religionist to incandescent fury is just to laugh at them and say “Good grief – I thought that mumbo jumbo died out in the Middle Ages”.
I try to refer to god as ‘it’. It seems pretty ridiculous to be assigning gender to a non-reproducing, singular entity.
John:
Thanks for the advice but the arguement has moved to a public forum so I feel obliged to carry on just so that those that are uninformed and uninclined to do the research for themselves do not take what the idiot has been saying to be true. I think rather a lot of people end up believing the claims made by the religious simply because they don’t see people try and dispute them.
Enough with the genitals already. I’m trying to do important government work here and you all are distracting me.
I recently got into an arguement/discussion about religious beliefs with a xtian friend of mine. He kept saying the bible says this and and your taking the bible out of contect and you don’t understand what god meant by that and on and on. Until I fianlly got him to see that he could not argue with me from a position based soully on the his belief. He had a moment of understanding then said you’re right but I still believe in god/bible….gasp, sigh, shrug. At least I still have my “correct” point of view….
When they say that it’s in the bible. Ask them “Which bible?”
King James; Revised King James; Douai Rheimes; International; New International; New Revised International; New American; New Revised American; etc, etc, etc
This will slow the down.
Heavenly genitals? Well, I’ve heard a few in my time….
haha kiyaroru so now we can paraphrase that old quote…
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just read one fewer bible than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other bibles, you will understand why I dismiss yours”
@DonR and Daoloth
Sorry chaps – I have to unmask Author as a man, and a British one at that. His name is David.
Hopefully the fundamentalists won’t be able to track him down on that basis…
Ah Oliver, how sad that nuns would oversimplify something like a mortal sin when explaining the inexplicable to bored 12 year olds….
Johnothan T. Rock-Splitter writes: “Another way of bringing a religionist to incandescent fury is just to laugh at them and say “Good grief – I thought that mumbo jumbo died out in the Middle Agesâ€.”
Haha, that’s more my style. Thanks for the tip. 🙂
Sacrificial gods are all the rage. And cruxifixions a doddle- as the man said-at least it gets you out in the open air.
As this example shows. http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/martyr-con-07.html
Are the holy days over yet?
April 21 and still no new strip. I hope the resurrection worked out.
kiyaroru: I’ve been reading the Douai Rheimes Bible with a voice synthesiser (enabling something more constructive to be done at the same time). It sounds vaguely amusing. Have got to the end of Deuteronomy, my goodness there are hundreds more pages to go. (You can get the text from Project Gutenberg, http://www.gutenberg.org).
What right do you’s have critising God,Jesus and the Holy spirit(trinity).If you don’t no how the resurrection of the Lord was said in the Gospel of the Lord then what right do you have making up stupid jokes like this. I think you people need to grow up and even if you are a religious person who thinks this joke is awesome and lyk sooo funny then you need to grow up. Thats whats so wrong about the world today is that there are those who make fun of the whole cruciffiction sort of thing anf that he died on the cross and rised again in three days. In John 14: 6 it clearly says: Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me. He died for us to make it easy for us to have a closer relationship with his father and he made a easier way for us to go to heaven if not we burn in hell were maggots eat our fleash. All im saying is that this joke is stupid because in some way it may affend some people. Im just a little kid affter all but im expressing myself and saying what i want to say after all this is a website that you can say what you want to say well i think im finish now.
I’m hoping that Author is spending some of this time designing a new SPOING T-Shirt :-P. Perhaps we could send one to Jane
Jane&imChristian. although you’re only a child you will grow up and hopefully you’ll be a little less ‘mature’. Life’s fun and it doesn’t need to be dictated by a fairy story. I’m sure you can decide whether you are a good person or not. Go and discover it for yourself and enjoy it. Life’s not all about God and killing people on crosses 🙂
Jane: You think what is wrong with the world today is that people make fun of old stories? Really? You can’t think of some other, much more serious, things that are wrong in the world?
Anyway, did you ever stop to think about how silly the resurrection story sounds? It’s pretty hard to talk about it at all without making fun of it, unless you’re not actually willing to think about it and just parrot lines. God sends his son (who is also himself) down to earth so he can be sacrificed to himself so that he doesn’t have to punish everyone in the world eternally for something one of their ancestors did. Makes about as much sense as a David Lynch film.
Dear Jane&imChristian:
You quote “In John 14: 6 it clearly says: Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to the father except through me”.
I’m pretty sure that Al Pacino said almost the same thing in the movie “The Godfather”, but he had a gun so I’d have to pay more attention to it than what some guy wrote in that book of fables you quote from.
If you don’t believe me, consider what happened to “Fredo”, and he was both a son and a brother, who became a (hole filled) holy ghost.
Best regards,
Jerry&imnot
Jane says… “What right do you’s have critising God,Jesus and the Holy spirit(trinity)” Well, I suspect that this strip is written in England, so I can’t speak for the author, but I live in the good ol’ USA and I have every right to say whatever I want. It says so, right there in that little thing they call the Constitution. Right near where is says the gov needs to stay out of the whole fairy tale business.
As for “If you don’t no how the resurrection of the Lord was said in the Gospel of the Lord then what right do you have making up stupid jokes like this.” So, are you telling me you’ve read the original, in the original language? No? So what version did you read? King James’ version that he had tailored to his needs? The Good News bible, dumbed down to take out all that confusing, conflicting stuff so no one questions it? Perhaps the Knox bible where Ronald Knox, paid to come up with a new version just before WWII, gave new meaning to formerly confusing passages? We had all three when I was growing up. I’m not sure, however, that my mother meant for me to compare them and wonder about the discrepancies.
You certainly don’t sound like a “little kid” — I’d guess more of a pre-teen. So let me ask you this: Do you believe in Zeus and Apollo and Prometheus and all those guys? If not, why not? Surely their works were every bit as impressive and wondrous as JC’s or even the god of the old testament. And, by the way, every bit as substantiated as JC’s. Did your parents ever tell you that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy were real? Do you (still) believe them? If not, why not? How is that any different?
So to get to the crux of your question, regarding the gospel and the resurrection, the New International Version describes it thusly: “But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.” (Luke 24:11-12) So even the disciples thought it was nonsense and Pete saw that the body was gone and wondered what happened. Well, let’s see, take a body, made of meat, and put it in a cave in the woods and leave it for a couple of days. What do you really think happened? Miracle or wolves? I’ll go with the explanation that doesn’t require believing in a magic man.
by the way, since we’ve no new comic yet, which of the bible’s conflicting creation stories do you believe? And, if you’re a girl (as the name Jane might suggest), are you prepared for your parents to sell you into slavery? Because the bible says they can do that. Better be on your best behaviour!
atheist?
We can fix that…
http://nostradamus.atspace.com
re: jane&imchristian
troll
troll
troll
We are all just fretting, awaiting the return of J&M
Has Author gone on a holiday trip? Very strange! He or she usually announces when there will be a hiatus in the publication of this wonderful cartoon.
The big difference between Jesus and Author:
we all know the Author WILL return
*peeking out from behind cover* I think she’s gone…
Damn drive-by trolls…
Unfortunately, I think “Jane&imChristian” is supposed to be something like “Jane&JimChristian” (maybe “Kim”), implying a partnership and thus adulthood.
I believe our transient troll may be of the “I beleevs it ‘cos mah Pa tol’ me so en i donts likes ta lern” persuasion.
Jane should spend more time in school learning how to do useful stuff (like spelling, grammar and sentence construction) rather than reading old books full of fairy stories, myths and nonsense.
If she did mean to type Jane&Kim then she deserves (according to her own sky fairy rules and regulations) to be stoned to death for blasphemy.
I just wondered if jprandi would like my email address (as well as my house number, street, town and telephone number!).
You do make a good point. Jesus’ suffering was not extraordinary, compared to the suffering that many people have gone through. Well, the suffering that is obvious from the surface, anyway. I think there’s two things that make it extraordinary.
Firstly, he chose the suffering. Volunteered for being scorned, rejected by everyone he knew, and then for death. Can’t say I’d do that for studio flat with a park view. Would have to be a Penthouse suite at least.
Secondly, from what I understand, Jesus’ spirit was also tormented for the few days before being resurrected. Again, with exact knowledge of what was going to happen, and with full power to stop at any time. My theology isn’t fantastic, so someone correct me if I’m wrong.
Anyway, I thought I’d pipe up with an alternative view for arguments sake. Nice comic. Some Christians need a little fun poked at them. It may just get rid of the stick up their butt.
Author! Where are you?! I hope nothing’s wrong.
My hunch is that Author is male. Regardless of gender, if the barmaid reflects his views then he could feasibly be a Man U fan. Which marks him down slightly in my estimations. But if he comes back soon all will be forgiven!
<waiting for new cartoon…patiently
I think a better sacrifice would have been jesus going to hell for all eternity..you know, since thats how his dad wants to punish the rest of us….just let him stay there and we can go to happy land with god…the cross thing was dramatic and all but not nearly sacrificey enough
But Matt, every time you swear or have unclean thoughts you torture the baby Jesus again. Have you no heart?
Does anyone know if a visa is required to travel to Argentina?
We have been missing Jesus and Mo for many days now. Hope you will pick up the good work again!
But if not, thanks for many a good laugh, not to speak of much afterthought. At least I hope your archives will remain on the net
[…] I really only meant for there to be a few, select zombie scenes. You know, Hippie Jesus gets slightly killed and comes back, complete with holes in extremeties; a few graves open up once My vacation is over – […]
Which park does Barmaid have in mind?
Presumably in Heaven you get your boredom gland excised.
We can’t know when the “holy days” end without knowing what, if anything, is holy to the Author. If the Author is a pantheist, the “holy days” may go on forever!
Dick M: More interesting imho than who made the sacrifice — to whom was the sacrifice made?
Ketil G: You and William the Bloody Awful Poet.
Sarge084: One still prefers that fiction make sense.
Hobbes: Most of my gun-nut friends are atheists.
Hobbes: Most of my gun-nut friends are atheists.
grouchy-one: I know someone whose father was raised in a strict Christer community in rural Arizona, then took a comparative religion class at Stanford. When he heard the words “Many cultures have a resurrection myth” his faith went kablooey.
Jane&imChristian: You need to distinguish between ignorance and non-belief.
Colonel Leisure: You remind me of something that (i think) C S Lewis said: “When I became a man I put off childish things, including the fear of being thought childish.”
Uncle Roger: You need to distinguish between legal rights and moral rights. By the way, the First Amendment doesn’t actually say “the gov needs to stay out of the whole fairy tale business”; as written, it forbids FedGov to establish or disestablish any churches – the last state churches weren’t disestablished until a generation later. — Be fair, wolves would likely leave some bones behind.
pzdummy: Do you happen to know what drugs (other than faith) this “Nostradamus” favors?
John The Geologist: Blasphemy? Huh?
Jesus wasn’t just crucified. Jesus inherited God’s heart, which is the greatest sacrifice any human can make. To inherit God’s heart is to love as God loves and feel as God feels. God, as the creator and master of the universe, is everywhere, so whenever we feel pain(physical or emotional), He feels is just as keenly. On the other hand, God is our parent, so when we feel pain he not only feels is directly as if He was feeling it Himself, but He feels it indirectly as a parent would. When Jesus saw all the faces and actions of all the sinners of all the sinners(all human beings) who ever existed, he felt their pain both as they would themselves and as God does as our parent watching give and receive so much suffering.
So my belief is that while Jesus’ physical suffering at his crucification was horrific, it wasn’t much worse than others before and after them. You know, they still do it today some places, such as Cameroon on the west coast of Africa. His real sacrifice was to inherit God’s heart and feel the same pain and sorrow that God feels every moment a single human suffers.
Unlikely.
“His real sacrifice was to inherit God’s heart and feel the same pain and sorrow that God feels every moment a single human suffers.”
A large part of human suffering was directly inflicted by this same god. If god feels so bad about it, why doesn’t he do something about it?
A bit more than three hours, I think. More like 12 surely? The point still stands regardless of the duration, though. Wasn’t Jesus supposed to have experienced super-omni-sin-based suffering, though? The other counter to it is the notion of free will. People have the power to stop suffering and other evil, but don’t. If God just stepped in and cleared up the mess, people wouldn’t have free will. That then begs the question of why it’s important (and if it exists and in what sense).
I’m a religious person, and I wonder if there are more “believers” who like to read this strip. I personally find those strips clever, most of the time, and sometimes funny. It makes a good analizis about people’s beliefs, and how they think their beliefs are so true and so simple, just because they believe on them. However, I dislike how it sometimes, rarelly, the author is not trying to show the inherent contractions of a religious system, or to analise them… sometimes the author only try to offend the religious figures, and I don’t see the point of it… I find it useless, silly, and yes, disrespectful without a good reason. I’m not talkin of this strip in particular… but about others, like the one of the elevator and the Holy Spirit, the one of the seagul or the one of the sperm… what was the point of them, anyway? they make an interesting remark on the religious beliefs of christians or muslims? I don’t think so, and I think the author could avoid such material, without loosing its touch and popularity. It’s not neccesary to be so rednecky.
“If God just stepped in and cleared up the mess, people wouldn’t have free will. That then begs the question of why it’s important (and if it exists and in what sense).”
Free will exists indeed, in the sense that we can think whatever we want and do anything we want within the bounds of the laws that govern the physical universe (gravity etc.) it is so inmportant because without free will, the meaning of love is eliminated.
Pets “love” their humans only because their instict tells them that if they don’t they won’t get the food, water, warmth, and protection that they need. This isn’t true Love, this is obedience and loyalty based only on necessity.
As humans, we have free will and the intelligence of mind to be able to live independently of God if we so choose. How precious is it then when we do indeed choose to live our lives striving to be with God even though we don’t really have to? It is infinitely precious. It’s like the joy a parent would feel if their children willingly come and take care of them when they’re old. As adults, human’s don’t need their parents to survive anymore so there’s no real logical reason to help their parents as they get old. However, if we love our parents we we help them out anyway. This should give the parents the greatest joy as long as the children have not legal obligation or natural reason of necessity to serve them.
The god-christ tale gets more unbelievable, convoluted, and bogged down with confusing details in the retelling. “Inhereits god’s heart?” wow, that wasn’t even in the original, and that things’s a messed up story to begin with.
Reminds me of the oral tradition of (missing accents) The Tain, an irish Celtic tale I took in medieval lit class. The storyline had so many threads in the various circulating versions, that the editors of the modern version of the original saga had to piece ’em together by picking and choosing.
Can’t imagine how much wrangling it must have taken to get all the various copies (which needed to be destroyed) of various books that were voted in as canon (word of god can be vetoed by committee, it seems!), and translated from various ancient languages (before punctuation was invented! God’s law might be missing a comma or semicolon that could change the whole meaning!), and then once that was ironed out, trying to ram the doctrine into people’s heads overriding their free and critical thinking capacities, usually under threat of some kind of punishment or coercion–> this was probably the easier part.
@pikeamus: a favourite one I’ve heard is that if future archeologists uncover remnants of the City of Manhattan, does that prove the Spiderman story is real. I hope no fans of this story start crying if I mock the writing or the logic of the plot.